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Old 03-19-2010, 04:05 AM   #1
RCIX
 
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experimental mod in the works

Supreme Commander 2: The Experimentals Project thread

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Massive update in progress
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I am currently in the process of setting up a Google Code project, as well as merging efforts with Esch1lus. The version i have below is out of date somewhat (though fine if you want to like play skirmish games), so be warned.

This mod is a full-blown mod, with primary focus on the experimentals. Its goal is no less than bring back the epicosity (is that a word?) of the original experimentals, while still maintaining the ability to deploy minor experimentals early in a match. I will also be adding in new research to each tree in a way that evens out the advantages associated with using each tree, and makes it less of an air spam game. Finally, there are several top-secret concepts i want to (re)introduce, which will bring the mod to the next level!

Features:
-- Epic experimentals -- you won't see minors before 10 minutes and majors before 25, longer if you're not experimental rushing. Experimentals also have new Experimental Effects, which make them experimental in more than just name.
-- Rebalances
---- The UEF and Illuminate Assault bots have been rebalanced to be more useful.
---- The Anti-Missile Units and mobile Shields have been buffed up to decently useful standards.
---- The Cybran navy is slightly more expensive, and is weaker on land.
---- Nukes are more expensive and anti-nukes are cheaper, meaning that they are not The Final Solution(tm) any more.
---- Mass Converters are now rate-based (you build and forget), but they have a maximum output.
-- New tech
---- New ACU upgrades -- cool things like Emergency Regeneration, Jump Jet Speed upgrades, and a Stun Jammer!
---- Flak upgrades -- you can now research flak for dedicated AA units (mobile and stationary), so gunship swarms are less effective. They cost a bit and are along in the tech tree though, so you can't research them right off!
---- New Illuminate Tech Tree -- the Illuminate now have a whole naval tech tree!
---- Stealth and Omni*!

*= broken right now, i have to look into fixing it soon.
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Update 5/6/2010: This mod is being retired in anticipation of the merged version being released with Esch1lus.

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Here's the download link: [removed due to being obsolete]

Unzip to a directory of your choice, then follow Install Instructions.txt. Changelog.txt details what's new in this version.

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FAQ:

Q: I researched some stuff on the illuminate naval tech tree, but i dont see any change to my units! what's wrong?
A: Everything in the illuminate naval tech tree (save unit unlocks) only applies on water. These upgrades are intended to "harden" the land units while on water and make them effective at combating naval units.

Q: What exactly is a "stun jammer"? And what does it apply to?
A: It is a device mounted on the UEF ACU (after research of course), which stuns units which enter weapon range of the ACU. this only applies to land army units: Command units, experimentals, or structures will not be stunned. It can stun up to 20 units completely, but above that it will stun only 20 units. The catch is that as you get more and more units over 20, the stun duration over units it does stun decreases to the point it can't stun anything at all.

Q: What are these new "Experimental Effects"?
A: For each experimental unit, some aspect of it won't quite behave properly or will have some other (mostly negative but sometimes positive) difference that normal units won't have. For instance, the Megalith's main gun damages itself a little on each shot, and the Fatboy slows down during extended travel periods.

Q: How does hunker work now, and is it any better than before?
A: Instead of reducing all damage absorbed, it allows the unit that's hunkering to simply ignore all low damage projectiles. What's "Low Damage"? For ACUs it's anything below 100 damage, for loyalists it's 50, and for Aeon PD it's 200. (The UEF ACU also gets a research item to double the effectiveness of hunker). In essence, a hunkered unit can ignore tank and assault bots while it waits for them to be killed by something else. These units are still vulnerable to artillery units, and in some cases MMLS, as well as pretty much any stationary long range (and some short range) weapons.

Q: How does the production capping for the Mass Fabricators work, and what are the numbers used?
A: I use a falloff algorithm that makes each mass fabricator past a certain point (i think it's 2 for the UEF and 3 for the cybrans) gives you less return on your money up to another point, where building more fabricators have no effect on production. As far as the actual numbers go, the UEF and illuminate get a maximum production of 6 mass/second, which is achieved by building 11 mass convertors. the Cybrans get a maximum of 8 a second from 14 convertors, but this is because their mass conversion effectively costs 6 energy/second for every convertor that is active.

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Known Bugs:
- Omni does not work. I have to figure out how to add it properly via research.
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Planned changes:
- Even more research for the 3 factions, especially more ACU research.
- More units, as soon as i can get people to help me with modelling/texturing/etc.
- The rest of the experimentals buffing of course.
- Tons more classified stuff

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This is a thread for discussing my mod, and not a thread for any other SC2 related thing. Please do not post about such things here...

Last edited by RCIX: 05-06-2010 at 07:51 PM. Reason: list formatting
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Old 03-19-2010, 04:42 AM   #2
gimrah
 
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Personally I think the minors are ok. You risk making the races too uniform. If you buff the AC 1000 it becomes a soul ripper clone. And if you switch AA for arty on the megalith it becomes quite like the Urchinow. And I like that they're cheap but not that powerful. They bolster an army but aren't an army in themselves.

But most of the majors are pathetic. They look heavyweight but they move like an arthritic tortoise and punch like a mildly annoyed hamster. You say king kriptor but I'm not too impressed with the colossus either. That beam is his only weapon and it takes forever to kill anything beyond a bot. Likewise the dinobot never seems to kill anything at all and it's even more expensive. I see a major coming at me and I'm not that scared if I have any defences at all. If it actually gets to my base intact, it should be devastating.
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Old 03-19-2010, 04:48 AM   #3
Palmerific
 
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One thing that comes to mind is giving the Aeon Sea Hunter the some more autonomy to its little glowing ball things. The range on it seems a bit low to me (maybe I'm using it wrong?).

Personally I think the AC-1000 fits in better as a minor experimental. And if it doesn't have a small AoE to its main canon, shouldn't it?

I would like to see a (large?) buff to the Air Fortresses anti-air, and perhaps a decrease to its land attack for balance purposes. It should be little more then a well guarded factory, not a base assault ship like the Soul Ripper.

It seems like the Cybrans Robo-Dino has way, way too few hit points. For something as enormous, short ranged, and expensive as that, I would expect it to be something like an extremely slow moving train that the opponent ignores at his peril. I'd also like to see its ability to enter air transports disabled. I mean, come on its a giant robot-dinosaur!
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Old 03-19-2010, 05:02 AM   #4
RCIX
 
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@gimrah: you have a good point, i'll keep the weapon types and AC-1000 the way they are for now (but maybe change their stats). A major buff for all major EXPs is in order, to make them more epic!

@palmerific: Points noted. The thing about the C. Rex which made it special was that you could get it so cheaply along with the megalith, which i'll try to bring back (it will be a "medium" experimental if that makes sense).
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Old 03-19-2010, 08:53 AM   #5
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I seriously doubt your ability to keep them ballenced with that atitude.

In general I will however say...
The darkinoid needs a buff, not only does it cost more than a soul ripper, take longer to build than a soul ripper but it is generally less effective than a soul ripper and lacks AA which the soul ripper has. I am not saying it should clone the soul ripper, I am saying that a aeon spamming darkinoids is much less damaging than a cybran spamming soul rippers, especially since soul rippers seem to have higher single target damage as well.
The megalith II is perfectly fine, people fail to see its exreemly low cost. It also has long range lasers meaning its perfect for supporting gound attacks from a distance. Logically if it gets focused it dies as it is not meant to be mid combat.
The dinosaur thing is prety much an expensive base killer currently. No AA and sort range with low speed mean it dies to megalith IIs who just run from it. Still I think its meant to be a base killer as it does I think the most DPS in the game when it can actually attack (which it can with still targets like bases).

AC-1000 is strong enough already, on par with soul rippers in effectiveness and is sure as hell cheaper. I saw a guy send in 200 fighters and 10 of them and totally level cheating AI no problem when my 6 darkinoids and 170 fighter bombers (totalling more in cost than his air fleet by multiple times) take longer to kill an enemy.

If you want to attempt such a mod, I advisse eithor moving all experimentals to the end tech chain level and making them all about equally powerful / costly or upgrading their statistics proportionatly with cost. If you make them too strong for their price, they will render normal units usless which is not the point of supreme commander 2.
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Old 03-19-2010, 10:34 AM   #6
aleksanderstorm
 
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You say king kriptor but I'm not too impressed with the colossus either. That beam is his only weapon and it takes forever to kill anything beyond a bot.
Um... the Colossus has miniature magnetron/pullinsmash bits in its arms. Basically, it grabs generic units up off the ground and throws them at other generic units. It's a cruel experimental like that- you say it can't kill anything but a bot, but with that ability it can grab tanks and throw them at other tanks and take out multiple targets with one go. Was the case in the original Supreme Commander, and it's still the case now. Doesn't mean it isn't weak, just pointing out you forgot it's magnetic unit-throwing attack by saying it only has one weapon. Everything the enemy throws at it is its weapon.

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Originally Posted by Palmerific View Post
I'd also like to see its ability to enter air transports disabled. I mean, come on its a giant robot-dinosaur!
What, really? I assumed all major experimentals couldn't be transported even in experimental transports. Only the minors, and the only way to get them across maps with isolated sections was to rely on an Aeon player with a Space Temple... Curious. And nonsensical.

Last edited by aleksanderstorm: 03-19-2010 at 10:42 AM.
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Old 03-19-2010, 11:31 AM   #7
Nanobot o0O0o
 
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Let's not get distracted. I have a lot of suggestions but I am at work, maybe more later.

1) Darkenoid green lasers - Increased by 20% damage (At least 20% above the Megalith's red lasers)
2) [Hard Fix] Darkenoids dripping plasma slows enemy movement 20%

2) C-Rex Health increase
3) [Medium-Hard Fix] C-Rex anti-air addition
4) Ooh! Ooh! All Assault Bots need a DMG increase or Health increase (I have done tests, and Assault bots lose against tanks. Even mixed groups with bots will lose against just tanks).... They do have movement speed, but they are kinda worthless.
5) Reduce cost for Experimental Air Transports, but not the gantries.

====================================
Try to increase cost for units that you are finally making truly effective.
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Old 03-19-2010, 03:47 PM   #8
RCIX
 
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Thanks for keeping it on topic nanobot

Assault bots will have to be a separate mod, as i want to start with experimentals to make sure i'm decent at modding.

You mention that darkenoids dropping plasma slows enemy movement, i'll take a look at the code. This seems like the sort of thing that's intended. Edit: nope, i don't see how that is done. In any case, such a fix is both likely beyond my abilities and this mods scope at the moment...

C-Rex AA addition? maybe replace the missile launchers? because wguke it's not impossible to have both, i think it would looks squirly having multiple weapons coming from the same spot on the model.

@DrSuperGood: i've cut my plans to change weaponry on the Megalith or buff the AC-1000, so i'm mainly looking at (right now) adjusting stats to give experimentals the same feel as SC1 and FA (with a statistics method as you suggested). What attitude are you referring to?....

@Aleksanderstorm: Yep, all experimental transports can hold one major experimental. I'd consider cutting the ability, but it gives the major (land) experimentals some use when there are chasms between the base(corvana chasm at least)

So, i'm currently looking at this list of changes:
Minor experimentals could use a small power/cost boost. Major ones need a very large one.
A lot of experimentals have a surprising lack of power in some of their weapons, and i want to fix this (king kriptor, i'm lookin at you)
King Kriptor
Universal Colossus (maybe make it a slow powerhouse)
C. Rex (i'm thinking make it a relatively weak but speedy experimental, add AA)
Minor land assault experimentals could use a bit more oomph.
Mega Fortress could use a bunch more anti-air abilities, and a drop to its anti-ground DPS. I also might look at making it cheaper to research relative to other experimentals so that it's something you might buy in a reasonable time period.
Magnetron needs a fix to prevent it from dumping way too much mass in when grinding up high health units.
A lot of weapons that have big poofy explosion effects are missing AoE, which i will try to fix.
Something for the darkenoid (see below)

So what i need to hear about are the structure experimentals, and the Illuminate ones: shouuld i do anything to them (beyond boosting their cost and stats proportionally)?

An idea i had for one or two weapons in order to make them more effective against defended stuff (in this case, the disruptor station and darkenoid) would be the ability to penetrate shields for their main weapons. THen it would be a "you better shoot it down before it gets to your base because you won't have a base" mentailty. I'm not entirely sure i can do it on a beam weapon though and i'd like to hear on whether it would be OP or even balancable.

Last edited by RCIX: 03-19-2010 at 04:07 PM.
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Old 03-19-2010, 04:11 PM   #9
Latrodectus
 
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This is a thread for discussing possible changes to the experimentals, and not a thread for discussing balance, strategy, replays, or any other SC2 related thing. Please do not post about such things here...
Airnomo: increased range

Cybranasaurs Rex: I wouldn't even know where to begin with this thing, maybe some kind of AoE EMP stomp that freezes units at its feet. But even that wouldn't be enough.

Wilfindja: Make it faster or more durable.

Airfortress: make it build fighters faster (like Noah Cannon speed). Mind you that's just fighters, not bombers and gunships. This would make it less vulnerable to air units since you would be able to crank out a lot of fighters to defend it no matter where it is.

Atlantis Aircraft Carrier: Make it invisible to sonar when it's submerged maybe? Given the unit's nature all it's really good for is sneak attacks. Maybe an increase in production speed.

Kraken: Problem with this unit is the Cybran naval units already dominate the water. Maybe give it long range tactical missiles or some BS like that. Or maybe give it a transport capability for land units. I'm grasping at straws here.
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Old 03-19-2010, 04:20 PM   #10
RCIX
 
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I plan on making the C. Rex a really fast unit (as fast or faster than most army units) to make up for some of it's other deficits.

Added wilfindja to the list.

Air fortress: i'm not sure i can pull that off. I might be able to if you can accept regular speed for other air unit production.

I'd probably beef up the guns on it so it can deal a good punch, and yeah a production speed boost is in order.

Maybe (just maybe), replce the lasers on the kraken with some really long range guns (like illuminate TML or something), so that it has more use.

Last edited by RCIX: 03-27-2010 at 05:16 PM. Reason: spelling >.<
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Old 03-19-2010, 04:35 PM   #11
Latrodectus
 
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Air fortress: i'm not sure i can pull that off. I might be able to if you can accept regular speed for other air unit production.
Tough to say, allowing some one to build gunships at such an enhanced speed could cross some lines, even though they've been nerfed. Still, it IS a deep-tree experimental unit, so maybe it should have that kind of viability.

Oh, also I think the King Kryptor is fine as it is, the AoE damage on its main cannons is insanely good against clusters of units.

The AC-1000 is also fine imo.

Last edited by Latrodectus: 03-19-2010 at 04:37 PM.
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Old 03-19-2010, 04:46 PM   #12
RCIX
 
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I dunno, since when you see that big huge BOOM i expect to see tank wreckage not damaged tanks, seeing as a commander shot can wreck a tank (as seen in the first cutscene). After all, if it's going to be a 4k+ mass costing experimental, those cannons better have a big punch!
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Old 03-19-2010, 05:33 PM   #13
Aesir Rising
 
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I thought I posted some numbers on fac unit build speeds, but forgot, I guess. Anyway, Noah can do its units in 2 or 3 seconds each, depending on the unit. There may be a decimal fraction that isn't displayed, but 2 or 3 seconds is what is shown.

the air factory, last I looked was producing as if it were a regular factory with max veterancy, e.g., a UEF gunship popped every 8 seconds, and so on. now, when I ran those numbers, I can't recall if I had max research or even if any research bonuses applied (I don't think so) but I wanted to at least give a reference point.

Last edited by Aesir Rising: 03-19-2010 at 05:33 PM. Reason: it's not its
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Old 03-19-2010, 05:53 PM   #14
RCIX
 
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Ok, thanks for the tip.

This is my final list then before i get working, anyone who wants to toss in suggestions should do so in the next couple of hours (before 8 o clock forum time):
Minor experimentals could use a small power/cost boost. Major ones need a very large one.
A lot of experimentals have a surprising lack of power in some of their weapons, and i want to fix this (king kriptor, i'm lookin at you)
King Kriptor
Universal Colossus (maybe make it a slow powerhouse)
C. Rex (i'm thinking make it a relatively weak but speedy experimental, add AA)
Minor land assault experimentals could use a bit more oomph.
Mega Fortress could use a bunch more anti-air abilities, and a drop to its anti-ground DPS. I also might look at making it cheaper to research relative to other experimentals so that it's something you might buy in a reasonable time period. Cut buildtime reduction to only the fighters
Magnetron needs a fix to prevent it from dumping way too much mass in when grinding up high health units.
A lot of weapons that have big poofy explosion effects are missing AoE, which i will fix.
Something for the darkenoid (see below)
Wilfindja durability or speed boost
Boost atlantis guns, production rate
Look at kraken for weapon replacement or stat boost or ... something ...

Last edited by RCIX: 03-19-2010 at 05:58 PM.
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Old 03-21-2010, 05:29 PM   #15
RCIX
 
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Some musing on the Air Fortress and the Atlantis II

If the Atlantis II is to be built (relatively) early on in the game, then what's needed is a reduced production cost over carrying capacity and production speed. This will make it an attractive choice over standard air factories because you get a mobile air factory with battleship level guns (they will get a boost), submersibility, and lowered production costs.

However, for late in the game, what you want above all is production speed and the ability to deploy many units at once. Thus, i feel the air fortress should get a boosted capacity and producion rate, but build at slightly lowered or same cost as an air factory.
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