Gameplay and gun speeds update

Echo · 07-19-2010, 04:17 PM

This is a longish post, so only read the first paragraph if you don't care about the details.

With an upcoming update, the speeds of the various weapons will be adjusted to match the rate of old 100 tick servers.

There was a long-standing bug in CS with how the weapon firing rate was calculated. Imagine that the AK fired 6 bullets a second (166ms), and the server updated at 10 frames a second.

Server update 0: 0 ms Firing timer: 0 ms
Server update 1: 100 ms Firing timer: 100 ms
Server update 2: 200 ms Firing timer: 200 ms => *FIRE* => 0 ms
Server update 3: 300 ms Firing timer: 100 ms
Server update 4: 400 ms Firing timer: 200 ms => *FIRE* => 0 ms
Server update 5: 500 ms Firing timer: 100 ms
Server update 6: 600 ms Firing timer: 200 ms => *FIRE* => 0 ms
Server update 7: 700 ms Firing timer: 100 ms
Server update 8: 800 ms Firing timer: 200 ms => *FIRE* => 0 ms
Server update 9: 900 ms Firing timer: 100 ms

As you can see, 33ms of firing time is lost each time the gun fires- it's effectively shooting slower (only 5 hits / second) because of the tick rate of the server. If the server was bogged down or had lot of people on it, the results would be even more unpredictable.

This is why guns operated very differently at different tick rates.

We've updated it to the correct behavior, in which case you'll get:
Server update 0: 0 ms Firing timer: 0 ms
Server update 1: 100 ms Firing timer: 100 ms
Server update 2: 200 ms Firing timer: 200 ms *FIRE* => 33 ms
Server update 3: 300 ms Firing timer: 133 ms
Server update 4: 400 ms Firing timer: 233 ms *FIRE* => 66 ms
Server update 5: 500 ms Firing timer: 166 ms *FIRE* => 0 ms
Server update 6: 600 ms Firing timer: 100 ms
Server update 7: 700 ms Firing timer: 200 ms *FIRE* => 33 ms
Server update 8: 800 ms Firing timer: 133 ms
Server update 9: 900 ms Firing timer: 233 ms *FIRE* => 66ms

This fixes the integration, and regardless of tick rate, the guns will have the same feel. In practice, this made the difference between 8 (33 tick), 9 (66 tick), and 10 (100 tick) bullets per second on the AK. Now they should all be identical.

In order to preserve game play, we timed the guns and dumped out the delta between shots on the old 100 tick servers and the new servers. Every automatic weapon was tested, and then we modified the weapon data to match the old 100 tick results.

After making the changes, we ran through and verified that the firing rate was the same for all automatic guns as it was on 100 tick server before the update.

The final cycle times (in seconds) are given below:

SMGs
MAC-10: 0.075
MP5: 0.08
KM UMP45: 0.105
TMP: 0.07
C90: 0.07

Rifles
AK47: 0.1
Galil: 0.09
552: 0.09
D3/AU-1: 0.25
Scout: 1.25
AWP: 1.455
550: 0.25
Bullpup: 0.09
M4A1: 0.09
Famas: 0.09

Shotguns
M3: 0.88
XM1014: 0.25

Machineguns
M249: 0.08

With this update, all of them should feel like old 100 tick servers.

We also plan on looking at weapon recoil and spread patterns and fixing the integration problems there, as well, but that will be in a later update.

Thanks!

Echo · 07-19-2010, 04:19 PM

reserved for more information later

Horrigan · 07-19-2010, 04:30 PM

Yeay.! =D

hisham.albeik · 07-19-2010, 04:34 PM

Thanks for the details and the heads-up. Looking forward for field testing.

Simps · 07-19-2010, 04:44 PM

Looks good on a forum thread but remember that guns recoil / spray pattern / speed, is probably the most important thing in the game. If you are going to mess with that, please review it 1000 times before releasing the update. If you mess up with those things, the game will be ruined, and the flood in this forum will be insane.

Echo · 07-19-2010, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simps

Looks good on a forum thread but remember that guns recoil / spray pattern / speed, is probably the most important thing in the game. If you are going to mess with that, please review it 1000 times before releasing the update. If you mess up with those things, the game will be ruined, and the flood in this forum will be insane.

Yeah- that's why the plan is to get it back where it was.

07-19-2010, 05:02 PM

Well, I just hope someone from HP will read this

Please just have in mind that this slower behaviour pretty much killed the game for people with zero aim who just run in WASDA madness and still got their frags, game actually became more skillwise. Also the deagle inconsistency was good (in old css it was no problem to win a round with 5 deagles against full buy)

Echo, can you please revise and reconsider really everything and maybe implement some smaller changes to maintain this gameplay based on skill and aim? Not all things were THAT bad

. Maybe take a look to 1.6 a little bit, current version of CS:S was never closer to this game and it was great fun to play it

.

Quick edit: Great work anyways, finally someone cares

hl2_exe · 07-19-2010, 05:05 PM

I like it better with more skill now too.

07-19-2010, 05:23 PM

I somewhat agree with majkl, although i'd like to see the guns behave the same as they did before the update, a severe accuracy penalty while moving should be introduced to source, in 1.6 it is 10 times harder to get a kill while strafing than it is in cs:source.

hl2_exe · 07-19-2010, 05:40 PM

#9 has it
more movement penalty

alf717 · 07-19-2010, 05:41 PM

This is getting better and better each week. Thank you very much for addressing these issues Hidden Path.

07-19-2010, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hl2_exe

#9 has it
more movement penalty

But maybe not that major like in 1.6 because it would annoy pure public players.

hl2_exe · 07-19-2010, 05:45 PM

they can still spray with the famas and galil

Undead · 07-19-2010, 05:49 PM

Awesome news Echo, keep up the good work!

Was this update just issued? Because I just downloaded 22.6MB of CS:S but there's no news on it. o.O
And your post says "upcoming update" so I don't know if that is this or not.

hisham.albeik · 07-19-2010, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undead

Awesome news Echo, keep up the good work!

Was this update just issued? Because I just downloaded 22.6MB of CS:S but there's no news on it. o.O
And your post says "upcoming update" so I don't know if that is this or not.

That's weird.. there is a TF2 update just released
http://store.steampowered.com/news/4093/

but there is nothing indicating and engine change, or any changes that is used by CS:S. Maybe if you don't have TF2 installed, it'll get kicked to CS:S, since there are shared files.

Edit: Could be this? http://store.steampowered.com/news/4090/ "updates to the source engine as well as the SDK"

07-19-2010, 04:17 PM	#1
Echo Hidden Path Entertainment Join Date: Dec 2008 Reputation: 334 Posts: 653	Gameplay and gun speeds update This is a longish post, so only read the first paragraph if you don't care about the details. With an upcoming update, the speeds of the various weapons will be adjusted to match the rate of old 100 tick servers. There was a long-standing bug in CS with how the weapon firing rate was calculated. Imagine that the AK fired 6 bullets a second (166ms), and the server updated at 10 frames a second. Server update 0: 0 ms Firing timer: 0 ms Server update 1: 100 ms Firing timer: 100 ms Server update 2: 200 ms Firing timer: 200 ms => FIRE => 0 ms Server update 3: 300 ms Firing timer: 100 ms Server update 4: 400 ms Firing timer: 200 ms => FIRE => 0 ms Server update 5: 500 ms Firing timer: 100 ms Server update 6: 600 ms Firing timer: 200 ms => FIRE => 0 ms Server update 7: 700 ms Firing timer: 100 ms Server update 8: 800 ms Firing timer: 200 ms => FIRE => 0 ms Server update 9: 900 ms Firing timer: 100 ms As you can see, 33ms of firing time is lost each time the gun fires- it's effectively shooting slower (only 5 hits / second) because of the tick rate of the server. If the server was bogged down or had lot of people on it, the results would be even more unpredictable. This is why guns operated very differently at different tick rates. We've updated it to the correct behavior, in which case you'll get: Server update 0: 0 ms Firing timer: 0 ms Server update 1: 100 ms Firing timer: 100 ms Server update 2: 200 ms Firing timer: 200 ms FIRE => 33 ms Server update 3: 300 ms Firing timer: 133 ms Server update 4: 400 ms Firing timer: 233 ms FIRE => 66 ms Server update 5: 500 ms Firing timer: 166 ms FIRE => 0 ms Server update 6: 600 ms Firing timer: 100 ms Server update 7: 700 ms Firing timer: 200 ms FIRE => 33 ms Server update 8: 800 ms Firing timer: 133 ms Server update 9: 900 ms Firing timer: 233 ms FIRE => 66ms This fixes the integration, and regardless of tick rate, the guns will have the same feel. In practice, this made the difference between 8 (33 tick), 9 (66 tick), and 10 (100 tick) bullets per second on the AK. Now they should all be identical. In order to preserve game play, we timed the guns and dumped out the delta between shots on the old 100 tick servers and the new servers. Every automatic weapon was tested, and then we modified the weapon data to match the old 100 tick results. After making the changes, we ran through and verified that the firing rate was the same for all automatic guns as it was on 100 tick server before the update. The final cycle times (in seconds) are given below: SMGs MAC-10: 0.075 MP5: 0.08 KM UMP45: 0.105 TMP: 0.07 C90: 0.07 Rifles AK47: 0.1 Galil: 0.09 552: 0.09 D3/AU-1: 0.25 Scout: 1.25 AWP: 1.455 550: 0.25 Bullpup: 0.09 M4A1: 0.09 Famas: 0.09 Shotguns M3: 0.88 XM1014: 0.25 Machineguns M249: 0.08 With this update, all of them should feel like old 100 tick servers. We also plan on looking at weapon recoil and spread patterns and fixing the integration problems there, as well, but that will be in a later update. Thanks! __________________ Defense Grid Developer Last edited by Echo: 07-19-2010 at 04:21 PM.

07-19-2010, 04:19 PM	#2
Echo Hidden Path Entertainment Join Date: Dec 2008 Reputation: 334 Posts: 653	reserved reserved for more information later __________________ Defense Grid Developer

07-19-2010, 05:02 PM	#7
MAJKL Guest Posts: n/a	Well, I just hope someone from HP will read this Please just have in mind that this slower behaviour pretty much killed the game for people with zero aim who just run in WASDA madness and still got their frags, game actually became more skillwise. Also the deagle inconsistency was good (in old css it was no problem to win a round with 5 deagles against full buy) Echo, can you please revise and reconsider really everything and maybe implement some smaller changes to maintain this gameplay based on skill and aim? Not all things were THAT bad . Maybe take a look to 1.6 a little bit, current version of CS:S was never closer to this game and it was great fun to play it . Quick edit: Great work anyways, finally someone cares Last edited by MAJKL: 07-19-2010 at 05:09 PM.

07-19-2010, 04:30 PM	#3
Horrigan Join Date: Jan 2010 Reputation: 0 Posts: 87	Yeay.! =D

07-19-2010, 04:34 PM	#4
hisham.albeik Join Date: Oct 2007 Reputation: 175 Posts: 2,847	Thanks for the details and the heads-up. Looking forward for field testing.

07-19-2010, 04:44 PM	#5
Simps Join Date: Jan 2009 Reputation: 8 Posts: 54	Looks good on a forum thread but remember that guns recoil / spray pattern / speed, is probably the most important thing in the game. If you are going to mess with that, please review it 1000 times before releasing the update. If you mess up with those things, the game will be ruined, and the flood in this forum will be insane.

07-19-2010, 05:05 PM	#8
hl2_exe Banned Join Date: Nov 2008 Reputation: 49 Posts: 735	I like it better with more skill now too.

07-19-2010, 05:23 PM	#9
rwj Guest Posts: n/a	I somewhat agree with majkl, although i'd like to see the guns behave the same as they did before the update, a severe accuracy penalty while moving should be introduced to source, in 1.6 it is 10 times harder to get a kill while strafing than it is in cs:source.

07-19-2010, 05:40 PM	#10
hl2_exe Banned Join Date: Nov 2008 Reputation: 49 Posts: 735	#9 has it more movement penalty

07-19-2010, 05:41 PM	#11
alf717 Join Date: Jun 2006 Reputation: 10 Posts: 102	This is getting better and better each week. Thank you very much for addressing these issues Hidden Path.

07-19-2010, 05:45 PM	#13
hl2_exe Banned Join Date: Nov 2008 Reputation: 49 Posts: 735	they can still spray with the famas and galil

07-19-2010, 05:49 PM	#14
Undead Join Date: Jun 2008 Reputation: 349 Posts: 3,167	Awesome news Echo, keep up the good work! Was this update just issued? Because I just downloaded 22.6MB of CS:S but there's no news on it. o.O And your post says "upcoming update" so I don't know if that is this or not.