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Old 03-15-2011, 01:14 AM   #1
Psychological
 
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Melee

I've got a few complaints about melee. M2 and the actual melee weapons.

First of all, Melee fatigue.
M2 spam is annoying, but instakill M1 spam is even MORE annoying. Why is there a fatigue for shoving a zombie away, but not swinging an axe hard enough to remove both legs?

Second.
I think we should remove the Melee kills for the special infected. Seriously, M2ing a hunter until he dies requires no skill whatsoever, and it's a cheap tactic against the infected.

Third, I want to remove Smoked survivors being able to melee.
Scenario: A lone survivor comes around the corner, far away from the survivors. I grab him with my tongue and he shoves me away since he's so close, even though I already have him.

That's just weird...

Thoughts?
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Old 03-15-2011, 01:40 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychological View Post
I've got a few complaints about melee. M2 and the actual melee weapons.

First of all, Melee fatigue.
M2 spam is annoying, but instakill M1 spam is even MORE annoying. Why is there a fatigue for shoving a zombie away, but not swinging an axe hard enough to remove both legs?

Second.
I think we should remove the Melee kills for the special infected. Seriously, M2ing a hunter until he dies requires no skill whatsoever, and it's a cheap tactic against the infected.

Third, I want to remove Smoked survivors being able to melee.
Scenario: A lone survivor comes around the corner, far away from the survivors. I grab him with my tongue and he shoves me away since he's so close, even though I already have him.

That's just weird...

Thoughts?
1) Yes. Melee spam being okay but Shove spam is not (shove has fatigue but doesn't kill in one hit. Melee has no fatigue but kills in one hit) is a HUGE point that's been argued here before and people have argued against it vehemently as if Melee is balanced without fatigue. It NEEDS fatigue.

2) I agree, shove spam shouldn't be killing SI. You should require to use your weapons instead of being effectively immune and disabling a special infected.

3) Self-saving by shoving is stupid. You're already wrapped up. It's just another one of a thousand ways in which game balance will always ALWAYS favour survivors. It's absolutely stupid.

I fully agree with all 3 of those things. They've been argued ad nauseum on this forum and its amazing that anyone would think any of those things are balanced.
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Old 03-15-2011, 01:55 AM   #3
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1) I still fail to see why anyone cares. No body uses melee weapons that much anyways. I've seen the 'pros' and they use their silenced smgs 90% of the time. Some of them take shotguns. They hardly ever pull out their melee weapons. Confogl hasn't put any limits on melee weapons, so those guys don't seem to care either. They took out T2's so if they really thought melee weapons were a problem, I'm sure they'd do something about it. Maybe someone who works on confogl could tell us their official position on it.

I know that when I use a melee weapon in versus, the times where I would actually hit the fatigue limit are probably at most 1 time in a campaign. The shove fatigue I understand, I hit that all the time.

2) The shove doesn't do a lot of damage. So I wouldn't care either way. But if they fix this, they need to fix the whole hunter hold down crouch while being shoved off and immediately be able to pounce again thing. I mean if you can't shove the hunter to death, then there is no way to take care of him without another team mate because eventually your shove fatigue will kick in. (omg noobzors survivors are OP don't nerf the infected) At least this way it would require the survivor to shove the hunter than aim and shoot before he gets pounced again, which you currently can't do without getting pounced on and so you are forced to melee him to death.

3) As long as it's possible to shove a survivor to release a smoker, this should be possible. But like the charger I see no reason to not have to either shoot the tongue or the smoker to release the survivor. Also, don't spawn so close with the smoker.

Last edited by Euclix: 03-15-2011 at 02:12 AM.
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Old 03-15-2011, 02:08 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Euclix View Post
1) I still fail to see why anyone cares. No body uses melee weapons that much anyways. I've seen the 'pros' and they use their silenced smgs 90% of the time.
1) 85% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

2) Don't make statements like this if you can't back them up. You haven't explained why a melee-range cone effect that kills all CI and never fatigues is okay for balance, but a melee-range cone effect that just pushes CI away and only kills them after 4-5 uses but has a cooldown is not okay for balance.

3) Whether you fail to see why anyone cares is irrelevant to the discussion.

Quote:
I mean if you can't shove the hunter to death, then there is no way to take care of him without another team mate because eventually your shove fatigue will kick in.
4) That is the point. This is a cooperative game. If you screw up and fail to deal with the hunter at long-range, it deserves to have the advantage in melee range. Zombies are physically stronger than Survivors. That's the point. If you can't deal with a hunter effectively, it should require the aid of a second Survivor to take care of it.
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Old 03-15-2011, 02:21 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonTrueshot View Post
1) 85% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

2) Don't make statements like this if you can't back them up. You haven't explained why a melee-range cone effect that kills all CI and never fatigues is okay for balance, but a melee-range cone effect that just pushes CI away and only kills them after 4-5 uses but has a cooldown is not okay for balance.

3) Whether you fail to see why anyone cares is irrelevant to the discussion.



4) That is the point. This is a cooperative game. If you screw up and fail to deal with the hunter at long-range, it deserves to have the advantage in melee range. Zombies are physically stronger than Survivors. That's the point. If you can't deal with a hunter effectively, it should require the aid of a second Survivor to take care of it.
1) Obviously it was a rhetorical 'statistic' to make a point. The point remains the same, I don't understand what the big deal is because I don't see people abusing melee weapons.

2) I don't know, but it probably has a lot to do with the fact that shoving can be done with your gun out while realoading, shootinng, anything. While to swing with a melee weapon you have to pull it out first, then swing which has a time before it actually strikes where as the shove is pretty much instantaneous.

3) Don't be a jerk, he asked for 'thoughts'. That's my thoughts on the matter. IMO it is insignificant and there are other things valve should work on that are vastly more important.

4) It's a valid point but it will just make it so that dead stopping hunters will only delay the inevitable (still useful), and that people will just shoot hunters off their team mates rather than even considering to run up and shove them. If that's how you want the game, then fine. I don't see any reason for it myself. I'd much rather see the hunter have to recharge his pounce if shoving did no damage. You have to recharge it anyways if you weren't holding down crouch, it feels like an exploit.

If you took both these changes into account (the hunter fix and the shove no damage change) the survivors are being much more nerfed than the poor hunter.

Last edited by Euclix: 03-15-2011 at 03:02 AM.
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Old 03-15-2011, 03:02 AM   #6
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in my opinion this is what sould happen.
1)Melee weapons sould only kill 2 zombies per swing this way it makes the weapon less effective but still a vital point in the game , the rest of the zombies will not be shoved awey they will stand still and hit you if you have a melee weapon you sould suffer to.

2)As for m2 spam the best way to fix this in my opinion is to have it like it is now when you shove zombies but if you shove a special infected you can only do it 2 times and you get tired.

3)The smoker shove yeah that sould be fix like this you melee the smoker but dosent let go of you from his tongue.
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Old 03-15-2011, 03:24 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by john_volkov View Post
in my opinion this is what sould happen.
1)Melee weapons sould only kill 2 zombies per swing this way it makes the weapon less effective but still a vital point in the game , the rest of the zombies will not be shoved awey they will stand still and hit you if you have a melee weapon you sould suffer to.
I have always contended that if you must nerf melee weapons, the best way to do it would be to reduce the number of hit rays per each weapon.
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Old 03-15-2011, 03:49 AM   #8
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You know, the tongue wrapped animation actually has the arms free... I always thought it was odd that, after a few seconds of struggling pointlessly, it didn't occur to the survivors to maybe shoot or use their melee weapons.
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Old 03-15-2011, 04:20 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Euclix View Post
1) I still fail to see why anyone cares. No body uses melee weapons that much anyways. I've seen the 'pros' and they use their silenced smgs 90% of the time. Some of them take shotguns. They hardly ever pull out their melee weapons. Confogl hasn't put any limits on melee weapons, so those guys don't seem to care either. They took out T2's so if they really thought melee weapons were a problem, I'm sure they'd do something about it. Maybe someone who works on confogl could tell us their official position on it.

I know that when I use a melee weapon in versus, the times where I would actually hit the fatigue limit are probably at most 1 time in a campaign. The shove fatigue I understand, I hit that all the time.

2) The shove doesn't do a lot of damage. So I wouldn't care either way. But if they fix this, they need to fix the whole hunter hold down crouch while being shoved off and immediately be able to pounce again thing. I mean if you can't shove the hunter to death, then there is no way to take care of him without another team mate because eventually your shove fatigue will kick in. (omg noobzors survivors are OP don't nerf the infected) At least this way it would require the survivor to shove the hunter than aim and shoot before he gets pounced again, which you currently can't do without getting pounced on and so you are forced to melee him to death.

3) As long as it's possible to shove a survivor to release a smoker, this should be possible. But like the charger I see no reason to not have to either shoot the tongue or the smoker to release the survivor. Also, don't spawn so close with the smoker.

If you took both these changes into account (the hunter fix and the shove no damage change) the survivors are being much more nerfed than the poor hunter.
The point is to nerf the survivors. Why in the hell would we be nerfing infected? You are bad. Plain and simple. Your views and opinions have expressed this thoroughly. Sorry if I seem like I'm trolling or flamebaiting, I am just trying to let you know.

Last edited by BROfest: 03-15-2011 at 04:24 AM.
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Old 03-15-2011, 04:57 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by BROfest View Post
The point is to nerf the survivors. Why in the hell would we be nerfing infected? You are bad. Plain and simple. Your views and opinions have expressed this thoroughly. Sorry if I seem like I'm trolling or flamebaiting, I am just trying to let you know.
You are right to apologise for your post. There is someone who takes time to put down his views and all you can do is flame.

No one doubts that survivors are OP, but melee is not the problem.

If it was, people would use it excessively, but euclix has made a pretty good argument that this is not the case.

If you do nerf them any more, everyone will go Magnum. Right now you see an equal amount of people using the Magnum and melee - looks pretty balanced to me (especially considering that the Magnum is really OP in VS).

If you want to balance the game, buff specials. There are millions of suggestions to do it. They are the problem, not a close range weapon class that is rarely used.
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Old 03-15-2011, 07:39 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by bl4ckrider View Post
No one doubts that survivors are OP, but melee is not the problem.
It's not the sole problem, but it is a contributing factor.

In L4D1, shove spam was so powerful that they added in the Shove Fatigue (this was a post-release change, this was not something that was in the base game, for those who don't know). Before Fatigue was implemented in Versus, a skilled player with good timing could literally clear a Versus game with JUST a medkit in their hands. And survive with minimal to zero damage.

When L4D2 came out, Shove Fatigue was baseline in all game modes. Which was great. However, they then added Melee to the game.

Now you might be wondering, why is melee a problem?

It's because Melee weapons contribute to the exact same problem as Shoving did in L4D1, except on a much worse scale.

Instead of shoving a zombie away, it now kills in one hit. Instead of getting fatigued after 5 swings, melee can be used endlessly. There is no penalty for using melee, because you still have access to your Primary for dealing with threats at range.

So ask yourself, was Shove spam before the Fatigue nerf overpowered? If you answered yes, why is Melee in its current state NOT a problem when it is essentially the same thing, except worse?

Quote:
If you do nerf them any more, everyone will go Magnum. Right now you see an equal amount of people using the Magnum and melee - looks pretty balanced to me (especially considering that the Magnum is really OP in VS).
Magnum is balanced by its need to reload and because you actually need to aim it. Melee doesn't ever need to stop to "rest" or recover from fatigue. Melee doesn't ever need to be aimed (except you need to be facing the correct direction).

Quote:
If you want to balance the game, buff specials. There are millions of suggestions to do it. They are the problem, not a close range weapon class that is rarely used.
Except when this game actually had a thriving community, oh, say, a year ago when this forum was actually active, the majority of players used melee and comp players agreed that melee was the most powerful secondary to be using.

Why do you think players rushed to grab bats when they still spawned in the safe room?
Why do you think now that the pros rush to grab a melee weapon as soon as they find one?

http://poll.fm/1xodp

Just barely a majority agrees that melee is OP, from this poll based on members of this forum, and this is keeping in mind that the polls conducted here on the forums match the general trend of official polls from in game.

Yes, just barely over half said they were OP. It's obviously a divided issue, and because there's no way to remove bias (pros not wanting melee nerfed because they know it's good, for one example) it's impossible to be completely accurate. But at least half the community feels that melee is a problem, and as someone who saw the results of Shove in L4D1 both before and after the Fatigue implementation, I'm of the opinion it's a perfect solution to melee's ridiculous ability to mow down entire hordes while cornered up.
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Old 03-15-2011, 07:51 AM   #12
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What I see from "pro" teams is that 2 players will grab melee weapons and 2 will take Magnums. Anytime a Director created horde spawns or someone is Boomer biled, the melee weapon armed players will crouch and melee spam the horde while the 2 with guns out also kill the commons while keeping a eye on SI attacks.

It's quite effective.

I love having a sniper rifle coupled with a melee weapon because I know good and well that combination is OP. I will continue to use it too. It wins games.

I am very much in favor of fatigue being added to melee weapons to force me to work harder.
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Old 03-15-2011, 07:52 AM   #13
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Someone just got off an angry game of versus I see
1. I do kinda agree. It does not make sense how you can swing big heavy objects around for infinite amount of time and not get tired. I think they should make it that you swing slower after swinging it 6 or 7 times otherwise you'd be ed when getting boomed when playing advanced or expert.
2. Yes it should still be kept. Stop whining just because you got shoved in mid-air when pouncing someone and m2'd to your death. Its a sure way of knowing that the enemy will die because if you stop and shoot and and yet your bad enough to miss,they could attack you again.
3. Yea it's pretty annoying smoking someone when they are far away from teammates only to have them shove you and blast your face with lead. Especially in scavenge.
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Old 03-15-2011, 08:05 AM   #14
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I don't get it why do people want to have fatigue on melee , when if you remove the ability to instat kill a hole mob with a swing is much beter,if you ask me the only way to nerf the melee weapon is to make the melee weapon kill only 1 or 2 infected the rest of them will not move them giving infected more chanse for damage.
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Old 03-15-2011, 08:08 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagger Lee View Post
What I see from "pro" teams is that 2 players will grab melee weapons and 2 will take Magnums. Anytime a Director created horde spawns or someone is Boomer biled, the melee weapon armed players will crouch and melee spam the horde while the 2 with guns out also kill the commons while keeping a eye on SI attacks.

It's quite effective.

I love having a sniper rifle coupled with a melee weapon because I know good and well that combination is OP. I will continue to use it too. It wins games.

I am very much in favor of fatigue being added to melee weapons to force me to work harder.
Wouldn't an AK-47 + Melee combo be more effective than Sniper + Melee, or has the meta-game shifted towards having a Sniper/Hunting rifle in place of an AK-47 (or have I been out of the loop the last year when it's always been that way? 0.o)

Mostly just curious. It's not as if you're punished for taking one over the other. Sniper can't handle big crowds but that's what the infinite cone of invulnerability that is melee is for. /shrug.

Fatigue is the most elegant solution to Melee's OPness, no doubt. Durability, which has been suggested before, just isn't fun and doesn't solve the issue (you're still OP for the duration you have the weapon), and rarity doesn't solve the issue either (for example, removing Bats from the starting safe rooms did nothing to impact the effect Melee has on the meta). Reducing swing speed and/or reducing hit rays is a far more complicated technical solution that would need stringent testing to implement, and merely increases the skill ceiling rather than reducing the OPness of the weapons.

However, fatigue is already in the game. It's proven it works to solve spammability issues (see: L4D1 & Shoving). It's simple to implement. The precedent is already there. Now we just need the L4D2 Dev team to actually do it.
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