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Old 02-13-2011, 12:53 PM   #1
Shazam
 
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Being unable to crown the witch in realism...

Bandaid solution.

I mean, how, precisely, does that make sense? There are 6 different ways to take out the witch:

1) Crowning her.
2) Shooting her, then gunning her down (aka drawcrown if shotgun does a ton of damage)
3) Shooting her in the head, then gunning her down quickly before she reorients
4) Lighting her on fire
5) Shooting her in the head with a high caliber round (AK and up) then shove spamming her and swinging melee.
6) Putting a propane tank right on her, then using the stumble in a similar way to 5.

Of all these methods, only method 1 and 5 put considerable risk on the survivors. Only 1 and 4 work on walking witches, but it's still not going to make them useful, as walking witches are as avoidable as ever, which was their worst quality, and even then, their slower reaction time leaves them more susceptible to team melee spam, which is about as risky as a crown anyway if done coordinated.

So basically, all the devs have done is force the survivors hands on two issues:

For the sitting witch, survivors are now forced to use even less scrupulous methods, as the one that rewarded skill more and punished infected negligence more has been removed.

For the walking witch survivors are forced to do... absolutely nothing different, as she is avoidable as ever. At most, survivors will have to stay put till she moves, which isn't a big deal in a mode with medkits. Seeing as the mode also has t2s, all the survivors really need to do is have sniper/hr shoot her from far off, then spam her down on the way there if they can't wait it out. Even t1s can be sufficient for this, particularly if there's melee involved.

Okay, so I've established that this is an insufficient fix that is almost insulting... what's my replacement proposal?

Make the witch crownable, BUT, give her triple to quadruple the HP when she's startled. Make crowns only achievable by headshot (on ALL game modes). Set the wandering witch's path more in the way and make her much quicker to anger (so that she's scary, the way that she was assumed to be when news of l4d2 came out). Also, get rid of that pause that the walking witch has before she goes to shred face, where she looks all surprised. Even with the triple health, that's a precious second. Have her go at it immediately.

While you're at it, make the sitting witch a little quicker to anger as well, but not too much, and make her more likely to be in the path of survivors. And when a witch is burned with a molotov, make it slow her down less (though still more than default) and burn her slower.

What will these changes do to change the dynamic? For one thing, they will narrow down the effective methods of dealing witch a witch down to only the more skillfull ones, making the easier "safer" methods more of a gamble than even crowning or HR stunlocking.

It will considerably diminish autoshotty spam's effectiveness on witches unless people are willing to put 3 autoshotties in her path. It's either got to be a crown, or it's a no-go. And since crowns are made harder (no back-crowns), that's not as easy a task.

If the survivors find a way to cheese around this to weasel out of crowning (as they will), make the witch quicker to switch targets, perhaps even go after 2 survivors if you engage her from far off, and you've made her a truly formidable obstacle.

Now, I'm more on the 'hardcore' spectrum of gamers, so I'd prefer this change be made on ALL game modes. The only difference between realism and vanilla, in my eyes, should be the severity of the penalty for messing up the witch (death vs incap).

Perhaps this solution could be toned down a bit (quad health might be a little much, but triple health sounds about right), but upon examining the consequences, it's much more on the right track than the current bandaid.
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Old 02-13-2011, 01:05 PM   #2
Snookers
 
 
 
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Uncrownable wandering witches with incread alert.

Crownable sitting witches.

Both with instant kills, of course.
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Old 02-13-2011, 01:08 PM   #3
Woden
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shazam View Post
Make the witch crownable, BUT, give her triple to quadruple the HP when she's startled. Make crowns only achievable by headshot (on ALL game modes).
I've been saying that since L4D1 was maybe six months old. Here's hoping they listen someday.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shazam View Post
Set the wandering witch's path more in the way and make her much quicker to anger (so that she's scary, the way that she was assumed to be when news of l4d2 came out). Also, get rid of that pause that the walking witch has before she goes to shred face, where she looks all surprised. Even with the triple health, that's a precious second. Have her go at it immediately.

While you're at it, make the sitting witch a little quicker to anger as well, but not too much, and make her more likely to be in the path of survivors. And when a witch is burned with a molotov, make it slow her down less (though still more than default) and burn her slower.
I agree completely. Although I did not think of the Molotov suggestions, which I like.
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Old 02-13-2011, 01:09 PM   #4
Gogol
 
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You forgot a couple other methods, like closing a door in her face when she is startled, or shooting her and running away to mess with her pathing, or just finding a high area (like, over 5 feet) and then startling her from there as she's an easy target when she's going through the climb animation.

I like your idea of leaving her crownable but once she's startled, good luck keeping all 4 survivors alive. She shouldn't get stumbled as easily, and I think having her go for whatever survivor is closest over who shot her would help out too.

Oh, and fix the whole "ledge hang to win" thing when dealing with the Witch. It's rather cheap.
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Old 02-13-2011, 01:13 PM   #5
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i agree that uncrownable witches are an issue, but i think your fix is a bit lacking. for one, you remove several of the options for dealing with her, with no purpose. the issue was always crowning with autoshottie; i don't think anyone has ever thought lighting the witch and running is imba (for example)

why not simply give the witch immunity for the second shot fired by one surviver, so that if one is able to successfully crown her in 1 shot, or if 2 survivers go for a dual crown (as happened in a recent match) she dies
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Old 02-13-2011, 01:17 PM   #6
Smear
 
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It'd be nice if they fixed the: "Shoot Witch, move into safe room, snicker" thing. Did they take care of that while I've been gone?
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Old 02-13-2011, 01:17 PM   #7
Euclix
 
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Don't forget about the fact she can't climb a ladder if you're on it. So if it's the only way up, she can't get you. But that's a problem with all the infected except probably the hunter, jockey, and smoker.

Not being able to crown her on realism is fine with me. I like taking her out other methods anyways. I think the best solution to make her more of a thret is to spawn a horde when she's startled. And make the wandering witch easier to startle.
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Old 02-13-2011, 01:31 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Euclix View Post
I think the best solution to make her more of a thret is to spawn a horde when she's startled.
depending on what counts as "startled," this is the best idea i've seen. iirc, she's classified as startled when she actually starts running and mauling survivers, and not if she's repeatedly stumbled. i think it should spawn a horde as soon as she is jarateed (ie, as soon as she is shot or someone is in close range for long enough), but not if that one shot kils her (i do want witches to be crownable so long as it's not by autoshottie spam. if you can crown her with a pump, or with 1 shot from a tactical, there really should be no downside)
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Old 02-13-2011, 02:04 PM   #9
No_wander_off
 
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i never liked the idea of uncownable witches. it's indeed a bandaid.

@gatherto: i think that is what they should've done as well, it provdes a great counter for <insert any method of killing the witch here>.
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Old 02-13-2011, 04:43 PM   #10
Monochrom
 
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I could be wrong, but wasn't the whole Idea of the Witch to avoid her...
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Old 02-13-2011, 05:07 PM   #11
No_wander_off
 
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Originally Posted by Monochrom View Post
I could be wrong, but wasn't the whole Idea of the Witch to avoid her...
that didn't stop players from crowning her/killing her/glitching her, etc.
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Old 02-13-2011, 05:39 PM   #12
Some_weirdGuy
 
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They need to just make her straight out invincible
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Old 02-13-2011, 06:36 PM   #13
TheCombatMedic
 
 
 
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How about, no?
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Old 02-13-2011, 06:46 PM   #14
No_wander_off
 
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Originally Posted by TheCombatMedic View Post
How about, no?
if you can't add anything useful to the topic, please refrain from posting.
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Old 02-13-2011, 06:52 PM   #15
gatherto
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No_wander_off View Post
if you can't add anything useful to the topic, please refrain from posting.
i think that was directed at the "make her invincible" comment, which itself didn't contribute


edit: upon seeing his reply (next page) i find out i am entirely wrong, and he's simply ragging on the OP in an inconstructive manner.
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