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Old 06-18-2011, 07:02 PM   #346
zebcarnell
 
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Originally Posted by alexThunder View Post
Valve didn't say that directly - basically Gabe Newell said, that they might work on a Steam client for Linux, when they have enough resources left:

http://www.linuxgames.com/archives/17141
Lol we have already discussed that at length in this thread. I was the one who posted it ages ago.
It seems people's opinions are divided as to what he means by that. I fall under the "He commented without being asked, so it must be important" camp.
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Old 06-18-2011, 07:04 PM   #347
zebcarnell
 
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Omg here is a bit of humor, never seen this before:
http://www.stallmanfacts.com/all

"Richard Stallman wrote the first version of Emacs using Emacs."

LOL

"The R in RMS stands for RMS"

Man this stuff is awesome.
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Old 06-18-2011, 09:44 PM   #348
flibitijibibo
 
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If anyone here is interested in being an admin for the wiki, check out the posting on the main page:

http://steamlinux.flibitijibibo.com/

Just a temporary thing, but yeah. I'm going to need some time off.
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Old 06-19-2011, 12:17 AM   #349
Cheeseness
 
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Originally Posted by wylroberts View Post
This won't accelerate the development of the Linux client. Valve has said that it's in their to do list, but it's not at the top.
That's speculation of course, and so is this:

It's very unlikely that that sort of prioritisation isn't flexible and given that to date proper statistics don't exist, I think it's safe to say that they've made their current decisions based on assumed numbers.
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Old 06-19-2011, 12:22 AM   #350
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I don't see BIG name gaming becoming possible on Linux until they move away from Xorg, which gets worse with every iteration. Xorg even hinders HD video...that and Linux distros need to switch to ONE STANDARDIZED sound server.

I look forward to Wayland becoming more used.
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Old 06-19-2011, 01:47 AM   #351
zebcarnell
 
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Originally Posted by Honor Soldier View Post
I don't see BIG name gaming becoming possible on Linux until they move away from Xorg, which gets worse with every iteration. Xorg even hinders HD video...that and Linux distros need to switch to ONE STANDARDIZED sound server.

I look forward to Wayland becoming more used.
Yeah, there are still many people disagreeing about Wayland, I think the quicker it is implemented the better. It will break some things initially but if you want compatibility it is possible to run Xorg on Wayland and Wayland on Xorg. So it will hopefully be fazed in gently by the distros.
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Old 06-19-2011, 02:04 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by alexThunder View Post
Valve didn't say that directly - basically Gabe Newell said, that they might work on a Steam client for Linux, when they have enough resources left:

http://www.linuxgames.com/archives/17141
Thats awesome! Thanks for the link.
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Old 06-19-2011, 02:04 AM   #353
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I'm unsure about Wayland only because I don't really know what it solves, other than "it's not Xorg." While that indeed is a positive thing, that's like beating the fat kid at school in a race.

If there's a page that specifically outlines/lists what it is about Xorg that Wayland needs to fix and what Wayland will also improve without causing regressions in how the desktop functions, I'd really like to have it. So far all I've seen consistently is better multimonitor/monitor switching support. Great feature, not worth switching to a totally different display server/compositor.

I would also like to know what I need to do as a game developer to get my stuff running on Wayland. I doubt that I personally will be doing that work since I'm a Java dev, but if the game development community has to do the equivalent of dodging rain during a hurricane to get their stuff moved over (having that additional overhead is unacceptable, period), nobody will accept this.

As for audio, everybody needs to pay attention to this: http://forums.steampowered.com/forum...&postcount=225

Check out his post before that one for his opinion on Wayland as well. His post is the only one I've seen that really explains what is actually going on with the development, and it's not even a positive post.

Last edited by flibitijibibo: 06-19-2011 at 02:07 AM.
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Old 06-19-2011, 02:14 AM   #354
Cheeseness
 
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Originally Posted by zebcarnell View Post
Yeah, there are still many people disagreeing about Wayland, I think the quicker it is implemented the better. It will break some things initially but if you want compatibility it is possible to run Xorg on Wayland and Wayland on Xorg. So it will hopefully be fazed in gently by the distros.
I don't know enough about Wayland specifically, but that was the same attitude that I saw floating around before Pulse came along. Fingers crossed that Wayland doesn't end up being that sort of disaster :/
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Old 06-19-2011, 02:24 AM   #355
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Wayland is a graphics multiplexer for a number of X servers. Linux today typically only uses one X server for GDM and the user session, but we'll probably see that move to a dedicated GDM X server, an X server for user sessions (spawning more on the fly as more users log in) and maybe a dedicated screensaver/unlock X server. Right now we rely on VT switching to move between X servers, and it's horrible. We have no control over what the transitions look like and the VT ioctls are pretty bad. Wayland provides a solution here, in that it can host several X servers as they push their root window to Wayland as surfaces. The compositor in this case will be a dedicated session switcher that will cross-fade between X servers or spin them on a cube.

Further down the road we run a user session natively under Wayland with clients written for Wayland. There will still (always) be X applications to run, but we now run these under a root-less X server that is itself a client of the Wayland server. This will inject the X windows into the Wayland session as native looking clients. The session Wayland server can run as a nested Wayland server under the system Wayland server described above, maybe even side by side with X sessions. There's a number of intermediate steps, suchs as running the GNOME screen saver as a native wayland client, for example, or running a composited X desktop, where the compositor is a Wayland client, pushing the composited desktop to Wayland.
This is the best reference I can find on short notice.
http://wayland.freedesktop.org/faq.html


Edit And this:
Quote:
The Wayland architecture is drastically less complex than that of traditional X. Most of the complex stuff the X server used to take care of (things like KMS, evdev, mesa, fontconfig, freetype, cairo, Qt, and so on) is now available in the kernel or in self-contained libraries, which has turned the X server into "just a middle man that introduces an extra step between applications and the compositor and an extra step between the compositor and the hardware". In Wayland, the display server is the compositor.
http://www.osnews.com/story/23998/Fi...hes_to_Wayland

Last edited by zebcarnell: 06-19-2011 at 02:27 AM.
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Old 06-19-2011, 02:29 AM   #356
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So in terms of gaming, a game could potentially be it's own X server. Contacting directly to the compositor.

Game > Wayland > Hardware
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Old 06-19-2011, 09:29 AM   #357
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I really like the idea of a native linux steam client as a linux user myself. even if games arent ported over to linux right off the bat, it would still be a win for steam since they will be gaining support from linux users, and the linux users could still have the free to play games that are already available natively under linux. plus there are titles like Amnesia that are already native linux games, and dont have to be ported over.
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Old 06-19-2011, 07:44 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by steve80289 View Post
I really like the idea of a native linux steam client as a linux user myself. even if games arent ported over to linux right off the bat, it would still be a win for steam since they will be gaining support from linux users, and the linux users could still have the free to play games that are already available natively under linux. plus there are titles like Amnesia that are already native linux games, and dont have to be ported over.
flibitijibibo's list has somewhere around 60 titles that are already available under Linux, so that's probably enough launch titles (more than the Mac launch had?). I suspect that Valve wouldn't roll out a Linux client without their own library being ported though.
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Old 06-19-2011, 08:16 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by zebcarnell View Post
Omg here is a bit of humor, never seen this before:
http://www.stallmanfacts.com/all

"Richard Stallman wrote the first version of Emacs using Emacs."

LOL

"The R in RMS stands for RMS"

Man this stuff is awesome.
I am sorry, its this fanaticism is what put me off Linux.
Oh sorry, I meant GNU/Linux.

That and some other reasons to do with the issues with Linux's audio system, plus some other things. But honestly, the biggest thing is the blind fanaticism by a vocal minority. Yes, I did apologise to flibitijibibo for being a moron earlier (since I indeed say things in anger), but honestly what annoys me most about Linux, is just the blind very vocal minority that see it as the Second Coming. To me, a OS is just that, a OS. Not a religion. Same with others. I'm sure people can put their differences aside, but when people insist a OS is a religion.....

Anyway.

That said, indeed, a Linux port would rock, it deserves to happen. So does a FreeBSD port too. However, some part of me is skeptical it would actually happen, since Valve would need to do a cost benefit analysis to see if its really economically and logistically feasible.
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Old 06-19-2011, 08:45 PM   #360
Cheeseness
 
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I am sorry, its this fanaticism is what put me off Linux.
Oh sorry, I meant GNU/Linux.
Isn't that meant to be facetious? It's poking fun at people who idolise Stallman in the same way that this site pokes fun at people who idolise Chuck Norris.

Quote:
But honestly, the biggest thing is the blind fanaticism by a vocal minority.
I honestly don't believe that these people exist in the way you see them, and by your own admission, the number of vocal lunatics is definitely in the minority. Why let them bother you? I know of no other operating system, platform or development style that doesn't have its share of frothing madmen - this is nothing specific to the "Free Software movement", GNU/Linux or Open Source development models.

If Stallman himself upsets you, perhaps you should send him an email.

Quote:
However, some part of me is skeptical it would actually happen, since Valve would need to do a cost benefit analysis to see if its really economically and logistically feasible.
Now that the system profiler apparently works under wine, the hardware survey should provide Valve with the kind of information they need to do that sort of analysis.

The humble bundles suggest that the market is at least as large as MacOS. I don't know what the pre-order stats are for Oil Rush, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't Linux dominated.
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