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Old 06-02-2011, 11:33 AM   #1
pramo
 
 
 
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[Team Fortress 2] Font issues

Hi,

I'm having issues with the built-in fonts in TF2, namely that in most places characters like '', '' appear slighly incorrectly. Also, there are a couple of missing characters, like 'ő', 'ű'.

A feature request maybe: let moderators change/upload fonts.

Last edited by pramo: 06-03-2011 at 08:32 AM. Reason: Fact checking
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Old 06-03-2011, 08:22 AM   #2
pyth
 
 
 
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I can't tell if the devs know about this issue but maybe you should submit a bug report from the in-game menu, providing a screenshot if possible.

By the way, you can add your own fonts to the game by editing the ClientScheme.res and putting it to your /tf/resource/ folder. Check out the section "CUSTOM FONT FILES" at the end of the file.
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Old 06-03-2011, 08:29 AM   #3
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Thanks for the reply, I didn't know about adding custom fonts to the game. Also the fonts seems to be improved since the last time I checked them, so my first post isn't completely true. (There are still some issues, and a couple of missing characters here and there, but better than it was.)

(Edited the first post)

Last edited by pramo: 06-03-2011 at 08:32 AM.
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Old 06-03-2011, 08:34 AM   #4
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Source can definetly use TrueType fonts. Pyth, any idea if that's the only kind of font that can be used in TF2 by way of the ClientScheme.res? If so, I'd say that's what's used for all fonts in Team Fortress 2.

While you can't upload an updated font with the needed tildes and accents with the current system, you could--hypothetically-- email an updated font to Valve's STS email address for consideration and use in TF2.

I don't know if Valve can use such a translator-edited font file, because of copyright and liability and etcetera etcetera, but considering similar complications already come to mind with translating text like we do, I wouldn't be surprised if they could use it. ^^

HOWEVER!

You say characters with acute accents appear "incorrectly".

Could you post a screenshot? It's possible that it might be a programming error, rather than a font error, which is something us translators... just can't handle. XD

A screenshot of the problem would be enough for a Valve employee working on TF2 to understand why the translated font appears incorrectly.

Last edited by Rocket!: 06-03-2011 at 08:38 AM. Reason: Nitpicky expanding~
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Old 06-03-2011, 08:43 AM   #5
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It was an issue with the fonts themselves because, some fonts had double acutes (on top of each other, or badly positioned), which made them appear squished and out of place in the game, but that seems to be mostly fixed now. (I failed to check my facts, I was referring to the situation of about a half a year ago, sorry about that.)

But some of them still have some errors, and the characters with acutes, or double dots seem just a bit smaller then the regular 'plain' ones (eg: A vs ).

Screenshot

Of course it is not really feasible to change the height of the fonts that much, because that may cause additional isses somewhere. (Also I may not even be right )

Last edited by pramo: 06-03-2011 at 08:56 AM. Reason: added screenshot
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Old 06-03-2011, 09:00 AM   #6
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Alright, I think I know what the problem is, and you're not going to like it. XD

Disclaimer: The most poking around Source I've done is aimlessly poking around with Hammer in Portal.

Hang on, lemme get you a picture--

Okay, look at this.

When you define text in the game, it's in a box.

If a character's bigger than the box, it doesn't show up.

So, to fit in the acute, or double dots, or tilde, the character is squashed down to fit in the box.

EDIT: WOAH why is the tilde floating so high above the A? Is that how it shows in TF2? That's not just Illustrator or your font creating software of choice?

Last edited by Rocket!: 06-03-2011 at 09:03 AM. Reason: Well and truly?
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Old 06-03-2011, 09:03 AM   #7
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Yup, that was the case earlier, but it seems like that changed they some characters, or some code, so it works kinda okay now. (I guess I'm just nitpicking.) The only real problem is the missing 'ő', 'ű'. (There may be other missing characters too, but I only need these)

Last edited by pramo: 06-03-2011 at 09:05 AM.
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Old 06-03-2011, 09:10 AM   #8
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Finnish / / / are also missing, or rather, replaced with
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Old 06-03-2011, 09:13 AM   #9
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Well, given the fancy font-making capable self that you are, it is my own recommendation that you fix up the fonts--TrueType or otherwise-- in TF2 as you see fit, and send them off to Valve's Steam Translation Server email address. I can't promise they'll use those files specifically, but it should be enough to raise their awareness of it to make sure it's included in an update down the line.

There's not really much else we can do as translators. XD

Now, I've got Photoshop (and I'm sure Illustrator's lying around somewhere...) and there's bound to be a 30-day trial of a good font making program lying around! Any way I can help?

EDIT: Now that is odd, TBO! XD Sounds like the was used as a placeholder character... it shouldn't be too hard to get those in as needed, depending on how feasible this turns out to be. -nod-

Last edited by Rocket!: 06-03-2011 at 09:16 AM. Reason: TBO IS WHAT POSTED 404 ERROR MUST REPLY MUST REPLY--
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Old 06-03-2011, 09:13 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thebigone View Post
Finnish / / / are also missing, or rather, replaced with
That is weird, since they definitely work for us Germans ( ).
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Old 06-03-2011, 09:22 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket! View Post
Well, given the fancy font-making capable self that you are.
Well I'm not that fancy

Also, for some further clarification: it somehow doesn't look that bad now. (Maybe they aren't using that particular font at all, it just used to be that bad)

Ingame it looks like this.

As you can see it's not that bad, but not perfect either.
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Old 06-03-2011, 09:28 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ultio View Post
That is weird, since they definitely work for us Germans ( ).
Hunh. Alright, quick keyboarding lesson for anyone that jumps into this at the last second:

When you press a key on the keyboard, your computer gets a certain number. HTML-- just an example of a number association bit-- shows this kind of number in this this format.

Fonts associate certain numbers with certain keys. The A key has a number, and the font file uses that number to determine which character to print.

When going international, sometimes that number is different. Which could be why shows instead of the appropriate or . (I'm hazarding a guess. xD I'm only a liiiittle bit familiar with this kind of international keyboarding.)

A solid example of proof I can give is that an English keyboard's " shows up as something incredibly wonky in a Japanese computer's browser. To avoid getting too off topic though, let's jump back to the font in question!

It's my guess that this "Right font, wrong number" is what's happened. I make no promises, my word is not law, etcetera etcetera. xD

If I'm right, that would mean different fonts would have to be used for different languages-- so that the right number is hit for the right character no matter the locale-- rather than just one font file being used for all languages in question.

That... might be considered unnecessary by Valve. Too much effort, too little result... you get the idea.

Alternatively, this might just be a TrueType Font thing. Hang on, I'll do some poking around different font files, see what comes up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pramo View Post
As you can see it's not that bad, but not perfect either.
Eheheh. That E needs a chill pill. XD

Looking at how the accent's top is right where the other characters' tops are, it looks like the box theory has some merit to it...

The only way to make it so that the font's characters have the same top, and the accent goes above them, would be to increase the box size... or make all the other characters smaller. (Example: A is shrunk down to 's main letter size, while doesn't change.) That would shrink the size of the font in a lot of places, though, which is a definite con...


EDIT: Hang on, might be totally off my wagon. Give me a minute...

EDIT 2: Alright, there's a universal system for fonts and the like. Given the aforementioned Japanese complication, it's possible Finland tries/tried to use something alternative... still poking around...

EDIT 3: Unicode-- a universal code for many a language and virtually all computer-based text-- handles multilingual characters in multiple ways. A character can be called on it's lonesome-- is one character-- or treated in combination-- is treated as two characters; the A and the double dots.

This could be where TBO's discrepency is coming from. Again, I'm no expert. XD

At the end of it all, all I'm finding are possibilities. There's a lot of different possibile reasons why is making an undue appearance.

Given the characters are in the font file somewhere though, as Ultio mentioned, I'd have to say that that specific issue is in the developer's hands. I'm in no position to be poking around the code involved to try and find anything definitive, but if anyone coming across this post should be, please-- go find out! ^^

That's the most I can come up with for the Finnish oddity. Sorry I couldn't be more helpful on that front. ^^;

Back to Pramo--

I HAVE FIGURED IT OUT!

In your image-- do you see how the accented E's in the gray boxes are cut off at the bottom?

The box!

Because characters get cut off from the bottom, rather than the top, we can assume that the only way to completely naturalize the fonts would be to make the boxes bigger (and move them so that they aren't in an odd position after becoming bigger), add some space above each of the accentless characters, and wait a second.

...

That's a looooot of boxes to make bigger.

And move.

And bug test.

And adjust the font.

...

As in, a week's worth of running through old code.

That is the likely reason why they opted to make the character smaller-- to fit in with the current boxes, and forgo excess work that can be arguably handled with the current solution.

There's definetly room for improvement-- that O in the orange button in your ingame pic is hands down ugly and completely out of place-- but asking the nice people over at Valve to readjust the boxes might be asking for a bit too much.

What we can do, then, is edit the fonts to make them more visually appealing, add in missing characters, and offer the work up to Valve in the hopes they put it to good use.

Last edited by Rocket!: 06-03-2011 at 10:08 AM. Reason: To do list~
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Old 06-03-2011, 12:51 PM   #13
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Here you go, I took a few screenshots to illustrate the problem.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2249387/tf2fonts.png
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Old 06-03-2011, 02:27 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thebigone View Post
Here you go, I took a few screenshots to illustrate the problem.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2249387/tf2fonts.png
Alright, hmmm...

Well, like I mentioned before, there's not much we can do on our end. The issue can only be well and truly resolved by Valve.

What we can do is try and give them a hand in pinning down the problem! SO--

@Thebigone:

Can we doublecheck that this isn't human error? In the Finnish section of the translation server, do any of the errors you've noticed show up in strings with and as being ?


Do the � only show up with a specific font? What letters are supposed to be where the � are? (We can check to see whether they're in the font yet or not.)

Are the absurdly red 's you pointing them out, or is that a problem too?

It looks like you've got the font(s) downloaded on your computer. Do the double dots show up properly in Word or OpenOffice with the same font?

Also, it looks like the fonts are pretty darn accessible. XD We can compare them to pre-existing fonts in, say, Finnish to see which characters are associated where. EDIT: Have poked around, and I must say, the aimlessly floating around double dots in TBO's picture aren't in the font in question, near as far as I can see. Are they added in using a different system? (Incorrectly so?)

So, the plan is:

Figure out when and where the errors show up. That should help Valve figure out why the errors show up.

EDIT 2: Interestingly, I don't think there's a in the font files! Are the double dots added in seperately, then? Hmmmm...

Last edited by Rocket!: 06-03-2011 at 02:33 PM. Reason: Fact checking~
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Old 06-03-2011, 03:01 PM   #15
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The is probably the result of an encoding error which only devs can fix. However, I just tried TF2 in Finnish and it looked okay for me. I didn't see any s.

The only problem I noticed were the � characters in the Mann Co Store. These also appear in the German version and I assume this is an encoding error as well.

When I tried the Hungarian version I found this. It is meant to say "VLASSZ" and as you can see, the whole is messed up. I'm not sure what went wrong there but it could be related to the text boxes Rocket! talked about.
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