Psychic AI + Horrible weaponary = HTF do you play this game?

gentlefury · 06-24-2011, 02:16 PM

OK....I read that the stealth areas were bad...I didn't quite realize they were THIS bad! You can't hit anything with the silenced pistol....so thats useless in stealth...unless you are incredibly LUCKY...and with the checkpoint system in place...luck can NOT play a factor....hit someone without killing them once and you are dead. Sometimes throwing knives work, but if there is another enemy nearby, you are dead. If anyone detects you in ANY WAY...everyone seems to gain a hive mind and comes at you full force...and they are DEADLY ACCURATE!

So my question is....how do you actually get thru this game? Is there a particular strategy that works? Because everytime I try to sneak thru a level I get detected and have everyone out to kill me...and somehow they can see me no matter where I am or where I go. Also, every single enemy in the area is magically alerted to my presense.

It's really sad when a developer goes to such great lengths to make a very realistic game...than kill it with hive mind AI....it just makes no sense at all!

P.M. · 06-24-2011, 02:23 PM

Hellsing. Or don't kill anyone at all.

gentlefury · 06-24-2011, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P.M.

Hellsing. Or don't kill anyone at all.

I didn't realize killing nobody was an option....crap. I'll have to try that now!

06-24-2011, 06:38 PM

The stealth sections are very well done imo. Alot of times you have to stop in certain sections longer than any other game I've played in order to proceed.

Stealth kills are easier and make more sense on Ranger easy/hardcore mode than say normal mode. If the option is availble I'll use pre war ammo for those sections. Frontline comes to mind

The leds on your watch indicate your visibility. red, yellow and green
Right clicking with your throwing Knife or main knife is a one hit kill.

With a little bit of skill, speed, accuracy and luck, it's possible on either of the ranger modes to kill 2-4 enemies standing in close proximity before they even realized what happened and without alerting any others who are in yelling distance.

And of course you can go through many of those sections without killing anyone.

gentlefury · 06-25-2011, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lk0960

The stealth sections are very well done imo. Alot of times you have to stop in certain sections longer than any other game I've played in order to proceed.

Stealth kills are easier and make more sense on Ranger easy/hardcore mode than say normal mode. If the option is availble I'll use pre war ammo for those sections. Frontline comes to mind

The leds on your watch indicate your visibility. red, yellow and green
Right clicking with your throwing Knife or main knife is a one hit kill.

With a little bit of skill, speed, accuracy and luck, it's possible on either of the ranger modes to kill 2-4 enemies standing in close proximity before they even realized what happened and without alerting any others who are in yelling distance.

And of course you can go through many of those sections without killing anyone.

I'll have to try the ranger mode once I'm done..I'm playing normal right now...and damn its hard.

I don't mind the whole weak ammo, and bad aiming mechanics...it makes sense. What I don't like is that once anyone spots you, you're screwed. If one person knows where you are, somehow everyone does at the same time! Even if you kill someone silently, if it takes more than one hit, they will alert everyone psychically!

They might as well have Metal Gear exclaimation marks over their heads!

gentlefury · 06-25-2011, 09:43 AM

And why does it seem like strategies work for a limited time. Now all of a sudden the 2 guys I have knife killed a hundred times, the knives just bounce off them!!

All I can say is, Last Light BETTER have quick save!!! This whole checkpoint system is COMPLETELY WEAK!!! Really makes a great game drag out and suck.

P.M. · 06-25-2011, 09:55 AM

Realistically, once one enemy spots you he'd scream something like "Alarm" and, well, that would make everyone hostile.

And yes, knifes will bounce off of armor, ammo, and even the weapon the enemy is carrying. That's why you should have Hellsing if you want to stealth.

gentlefury · 06-25-2011, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P.M.

Realistically, once one enemy spots you he'd scream something like "Alarm" and, well, that would make everyone hostile.

And yes, knifes will bounce off of armor, ammo, and even the weapon the enemy is carrying. That's why you should have Hellsing if you want to stealth.

Right, if they yell. I just killed a guard with 2 knive throws very quickly....he didn't say a word...and everyone was on me again.

Just seems like games either have psychic AI that communicate telepathically, or ai that gets amnesia when you turn a corner...isnt there a medium?

IcarusNine · 06-25-2011, 12:41 PM

You need to kill an enemy with one hit for it to be silent. One throwing knife square in the back or upper shoulders will do it, otherwise you'll need a silenced pistol shot to the head (nowhere else is possible) or one of the compressed air weapons. If you have the stealth suit then you might be able to creep up and stab.

For some reason, the momentary gasp of someone being non-fatally hurt is more alert-worthy than a body covered in ammunition and armor falling all over the floor. "Oh, those meter-long tunnel rats are at it again."

It's also helpful to wait them out. They often have predictable patrol routes, or a scripted sequence that sends them into positions where they are easier to bypass or silence.

gentlefury · 06-25-2011, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IcarusNine

You need to kill an enemy with one hit for it to be silent. One throwing knife square in the back or upper shoulders will do it, otherwise you'll need a silenced pistol shot to the head (nowhere else is possible) or one of the compressed air weapons. If you have the stealth suit then you might be able to creep up and stab.

For some reason, the momentary gasp of someone being non-fatally hurt is more alert-worthy than a body covered in ammunition and armor falling all over the floor. "Oh, those meter-long tunnel rats are at it again."

It's also helpful to wait them out. They often have predictable patrol routes, or a scripted sequence that sends them into positions where they are easier to bypass or silence.

Oh, I'm making it thru, I just feel that with all the things they put into the game to make it realistic....a gasp for air alerting guards 100 meters away while throwing a knife in someones back and the person standing right next to them not noticing is a bit unrealistic!

HitDeity · 06-27-2011, 12:55 PM

Once you learn the "rules", no matter how unrealistic the game world seems. Once you learn it and it becomes second nature, it gets a lot easier. I thought this game was "unfair" and "unbeatable" at first; then it all fell into place.

Yeah, some parts are annoying. To stealth them requires way too many restarts, and if I forget and run ahead, sometimes the autosave checkpoint happens at the most inopportune times. Other than that, I thought it was excellently done.

Kibblesman · 06-27-2011, 04:10 PM

Try to aim for the head. The only times that I ever did body shots is if somebody catches me off guard.

tacobandit744 · 07-26-2011, 08:33 PM

I don't understand why everyone complains about the stealth missions. They're like "OMG, MY KNIFE HIT HIS HELMET AND TEH GUY CALLS FOR HELP! NO WAY MY POSITION IS REVEALED!"

Seriously, I've never had a problem. I might miss a shot with the tihar, but then I just shoot at his head again and he falls down.

Also, I don't know what you mean by the hivemind effect. I'd compare it to the alert mode in MGS2, where they are seeking you.
(e.g. I'll watch from behind a box while they look for me. They never "knew" my exact position.)

BTW "Oh, I'm making it thru, I just feel that with all the things they put into the game to make it realistic....a gasp for air alerting guards 100 meters away while throwing a knife in someones back and the person standing right next to them not noticing is a bit unrealistic!"

I bet the guy next to him noticed and sounded the alarm.

Karmatic · 07-26-2011, 10:15 PM

i liked the stealth sections...Frontline was such a cool level because you could go all out and kill everyone, but the achievement for that level also made be play it differently....go through the level without killing anyone. It was hard as $hit the 1st time and i really got the sense of accomplishment afterwards...but if you're for action basically all of Chapter 4 is amazing.

t1ddl3r · 07-27-2011, 12:16 AM

Sorry you are having trouble dude, but stick with it, the game is AWESOME.

Remember; it is NOT a shooter as such. More a survival horror/action game in first person.

Best bet for the stealth sections is to use the throwing knives. If it takes two sometimes, if you are not too far away from other enemy, they will all know. This is a known problem with the AI that even the devs have admitted to. I think they got the AI as best they could and couldn't stop this no matter what they did without making them (as you said) suffer from short term memory loss and other stupid things.

I use the knives (throwing knives, not standard combat knife, that sucks), silenced pistol against enemy with no helmet if I am close enough, or the pneumatic rifle with the pressure gauge that goes into the red (I forget the name, but you can buy a sniper version of it later on). Always pump it into the red if you plan a single shot takedown, and go for the neck or face if they are wearing helmets.

Other than this, how are you finding the game?

I started playing it on release (on torrent, naughty boy that I am), and gave up after a couple of hours.

Then it came on sale on steam about 18 months ago or so, and I thought I would give it another go, as I did remember it had some clever gameplay mechanics and intense atmosphere.

Best value for money in a game I have EVER spent, bar none. And easily in the top five singleplayer experiences I have played in all my years as a gamer.

The devs have always called this their "flawed masterpeice", and I couldn't agree more. However, once you get used to these few "flaws", you find that some of them even make sense, and almost all of them you can learn to work around or even use to your advantage.

Apart from the psychic nature of the AI if you don't kill someone with one hit (even if you kill them before they can make a sound or even register that they have been shot once), the stealth in this game is fantastic.

Try doing something that gets their attention, like turning off the generator on frontline and see how they start searching for the cause. Very good AI in that respect.

As for your playthrough; if you like stealth, stick with knives and that rifle I mentioned, buy the stealth suit (it really does help), and make sure you aim away from any armour. Aim for the chest, sides or back. Aiming for the back works best I find. That way if you don't take them down they at least can't start firing at you until they turn around, by which time they are dead.

With the stealth suit you will find that as long as you are in darkness (showing a green light or NO light on your watch), you can walk very close to the enemy without being spotted, so use this to get around the back of people and take them down with your throwing kives. Just remember to search the body for the knife afterwards, those things are worth their weight in gold, especially in some areas of the game.

06-24-2011, 02:16 PM	#1
gentlefury Join Date: May 2011 Reputation: 109 Posts: 1,831	Psychic AI + Horrible weaponary = HTF do you play this game? OK....I read that the stealth areas were bad...I didn't quite realize they were THIS bad! You can't hit anything with the silenced pistol....so thats useless in stealth...unless you are incredibly LUCKY...and with the checkpoint system in place...luck can NOT play a factor....hit someone without killing them once and you are dead. Sometimes throwing knives work, but if there is another enemy nearby, you are dead. If anyone detects you in ANY WAY...everyone seems to gain a hive mind and comes at you full force...and they are DEADLY ACCURATE! So my question is....how do you actually get thru this game? Is there a particular strategy that works? Because everytime I try to sneak thru a level I get detected and have everyone out to kill me...and somehow they can see me no matter where I am or where I go. Also, every single enemy in the area is magically alerted to my presense. It's really sad when a developer goes to such great lengths to make a very realistic game...than kill it with hive mind AI....it just makes no sense at all!

06-24-2011, 06:38 PM	#4
lk0960 Guest Posts: n/a	The stealth sections are very well done imo. Alot of times you have to stop in certain sections longer than any other game I've played in order to proceed. Stealth kills are easier and make more sense on Ranger easy/hardcore mode than say normal mode. If the option is availble I'll use pre war ammo for those sections. Frontline comes to mind The leds on your watch indicate your visibility. red, yellow and green Right clicking with your throwing Knife or main knife is a one hit kill. With a little bit of skill, speed, accuracy and luck, it's possible on either of the ranger modes to kill 2-4 enemies standing in close proximity before they even realized what happened and without alerting any others who are in yelling distance. And of course you can go through many of those sections without killing anyone. Last edited by lk0960: 06-24-2011 at 06:40 PM. Reason: added

06-25-2011, 09:43 AM	#6
gentlefury Join Date: May 2011 Reputation: 109 Posts: 1,831	And why does it seem like strategies work for a limited time. Now all of a sudden the 2 guys I have knife killed a hundred times, the knives just bounce off them!! All I can say is, Last Light BETTER have quick save!!! This whole checkpoint system is COMPLETELY WEAK!!! Really makes a great game drag out and suck. Last edited by gentlefury: 06-25-2011 at 09:48 AM.

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06-24-2011, 02:23 PM	#2
P.M. Banned Join Date: Dec 2010 Reputation: 456 Posts: 1,824	Hellsing. Or don't kill anyone at all.

06-25-2011, 09:55 AM	#7
P.M. Banned Join Date: Dec 2010 Reputation: 456 Posts: 1,824	Realistically, once one enemy spots you he'd scream something like "Alarm" and, well, that would make everyone hostile. And yes, knifes will bounce off of armor, ammo, and even the weapon the enemy is carrying. That's why you should have Hellsing if you want to stealth.

06-25-2011, 12:41 PM	#9
IcarusNine Join Date: Jun 2005 Reputation: 4458 Posts: 2,472	You need to kill an enemy with one hit for it to be silent. One throwing knife square in the back or upper shoulders will do it, otherwise you'll need a silenced pistol shot to the head (nowhere else is possible) or one of the compressed air weapons. If you have the stealth suit then you might be able to creep up and stab. For some reason, the momentary gasp of someone being non-fatally hurt is more alert-worthy than a body covered in ammunition and armor falling all over the floor. "Oh, those meter-long tunnel rats are at it again." It's also helpful to wait them out. They often have predictable patrol routes, or a scripted sequence that sends them into positions where they are easier to bypass or silence.

06-27-2011, 12:55 PM	#11
HitDeity Join Date: Sep 2009 Reputation: 210 Posts: 1,858	Once you learn the "rules", no matter how unrealistic the game world seems. Once you learn it and it becomes second nature, it gets a lot easier. I thought this game was "unfair" and "unbeatable" at first; then it all fell into place. Yeah, some parts are annoying. To stealth them requires way too many restarts, and if I forget and run ahead, sometimes the autosave checkpoint happens at the most inopportune times. Other than that, I thought it was excellently done.

06-27-2011, 04:10 PM	#12
Kibblesman Join Date: May 2010 Reputation: 157 Posts: 1,026	Try to aim for the head. The only times that I ever did body shots is if somebody catches me off guard.

07-26-2011, 08:33 PM	#13
tacobandit744 Join Date: Jul 2010 Reputation: 1 Posts: 184	I don't understand why everyone complains about the stealth missions. They're like "OMG, MY KNIFE HIT HIS HELMET AND TEH GUY CALLS FOR HELP! NO WAY MY POSITION IS REVEALED!" Seriously, I've never had a problem. I might miss a shot with the tihar, but then I just shoot at his head again and he falls down. Also, I don't know what you mean by the hivemind effect. I'd compare it to the alert mode in MGS2, where they are seeking you. (e.g. I'll watch from behind a box while they look for me. They never "knew" my exact position.) BTW "Oh, I'm making it thru, I just feel that with all the things they put into the game to make it realistic....a gasp for air alerting guards 100 meters away while throwing a knife in someones back and the person standing right next to them not noticing is a bit unrealistic!" I bet the guy next to him noticed and sounded the alarm.

07-26-2011, 10:15 PM	#14
Karmatic Join Date: Feb 2010 Reputation: 63 Posts: 469	i liked the stealth sections...Frontline was such a cool level because you could go all out and kill everyone, but the achievement for that level also made be play it differently....go through the level without killing anyone. It was hard as $hit the 1st time and i really got the sense of accomplishment afterwards...but if you're for action basically all of Chapter 4 is amazing.

07-27-2011, 12:16 AM	#15
t1ddl3r Banned Join Date: Dec 2010 Reputation: 125 Posts: 573	Sorry you are having trouble dude, but stick with it, the game is AWESOME. Remember; it is NOT a shooter as such. More a survival horror/action game in first person. Best bet for the stealth sections is to use the throwing knives. If it takes two sometimes, if you are not too far away from other enemy, they will all know. This is a known problem with the AI that even the devs have admitted to. I think they got the AI as best they could and couldn't stop this no matter what they did without making them (as you said) suffer from short term memory loss and other stupid things. I use the knives (throwing knives, not standard combat knife, that sucks), silenced pistol against enemy with no helmet if I am close enough, or the pneumatic rifle with the pressure gauge that goes into the red (I forget the name, but you can buy a sniper version of it later on). Always pump it into the red if you plan a single shot takedown, and go for the neck or face if they are wearing helmets. Other than this, how are you finding the game? I started playing it on release (on torrent, naughty boy that I am), and gave up after a couple of hours. Then it came on sale on steam about 18 months ago or so, and I thought I would give it another go, as I did remember it had some clever gameplay mechanics and intense atmosphere. Best value for money in a game I have EVER spent, bar none. And easily in the top five singleplayer experiences I have played in all my years as a gamer. The devs have always called this their "flawed masterpeice", and I couldn't agree more. However, once you get used to these few "flaws", you find that some of them even make sense, and almost all of them you can learn to work around or even use to your advantage. Apart from the psychic nature of the AI if you don't kill someone with one hit (even if you kill them before they can make a sound or even register that they have been shot once), the stealth in this game is fantastic. Try doing something that gets their attention, like turning off the generator on frontline and see how they start searching for the cause. Very good AI in that respect. As for your playthrough; if you like stealth, stick with knives and that rifle I mentioned, buy the stealth suit (it really does help), and make sure you aim away from any armour. Aim for the chest, sides or back. Aiming for the back works best I find. That way if you don't take them down they at least can't start firing at you until they turn around, by which time they are dead. With the stealth suit you will find that as long as you are in darkness (showing a green light or NO light on your watch), you can walk very close to the enemy without being spotted, so use this to get around the back of people and take them down with your throwing kives. Just remember to search the body for the knife afterwards, those things are worth their weight in gold, especially in some areas of the game.