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Old 09-22-2011, 03:24 PM   #1
jerg
 
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Exclamation TWI releasing patches removing environmental details deliberately

Look here:
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.co...91&postcount=5

Quote:
M55ikael
Senior Member

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Posts: 196


Sorry for the spelling error in the topic, it's been corrected but the topic list won't update.

Here's a comparison, before and after. Detail and textures on ultra, the rest a mix of high and ultra. As you can see the difference is massive. But I think it may be a bug that was a result of the last patch, which I'm looking to confirm with you here.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14...9-12_00001.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14...9-19_00002.jpg
And TWI's response:
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.co...5&postcount=11
Quote:
[TW]Ramm-Jaeger
Tripwire Interactive President

Join Date: Oct 2005
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Sorry guys you can't have it both ways. Either we cut down detail in the levels and it runs better for a wider range of people, or we leave the detail and then everyone complains about "OMG this game doesn't run as good as every other game I play that just happens to be a console port with low detail." And unfortunately, another symptom of almost all recent shooters being console ports is everyone just cranks there graphics up to Ultra no matter what hardware they have, then come crying to us that the game doesn't run very good on their 3-5 year old hardware. This being due to the fact that games designed to run on 5 year old console hardware usually run awesome on 5 year old machines on the highest settings.

Sorry to be blunt, but sometimes I have to
I don't know what to say about this; on one hand they are trying their best to cut down the performance hit of the game, on the other hand they are also cutting out the feel of the game. Is there really nothing else they can do to optimize? Also can't they at least leave "environmental destruction details" as an option for those with high-end machines?
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Old 09-22-2011, 03:28 PM   #2
spidey20
 
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its more a question of those playing on low LOD having an advantage of better visual range and clarity over the ones with high settings, and then you wonder how you got killed behind that bush.
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Old 09-22-2011, 03:38 PM   #3
Haarvieh
 
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New update on this topic:

Quote:
[TW]Ramm-Jaeger
Tripwire Interactive President

Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,457

I fully stand by my statement, but I think there is some clarification needed here. There are generally two types of people complaining about performance with the game:

1) Someone with older hardware that is struggling to run the game as fast as they do other FPS games released in the last couple of years.

2) Someone with very high end hardware that isn't get the performance they fell they should from the game.

Now for some reason there are a lot of number 2's (guys with high end hardware) complaining about my statement geared toward number 1's (guys with older hardware). The fact is though, when we asked for perfdumps from people having performance issues, the VAST majority of those submitted were people that either their CPU or their video card was pretty low end (far below the recommended settings) - yet they were running the game with everything on Ultra. I truly believe that this is due to the fact that most recent FPS games are console ports designed to run on 5 year old console hardware. So guys with 5 year old computers are used to cranking everything to the max and rocking and rolling. RO2 wasn't designed that way - it was created for the PC with Ultra requiring a very high end processor and a very vast video card. So in these situations people just need to set their settings to match their hardware. It isn't "blaming their hardware", its just helping people figure out the right settings for their machine.

Regarding the guys with the high end machines, I would request that you guys step up to the plate and submit your perflogs here:
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.co...ad.php?t=61789

There are a lot of guys complaining, but VERY few actually submitting their perflogs to help us dig into this issue (as a matter of fact as of a couple of days ago I don't think we got more than 1 submission from a person with a high end machine having these issues). We don't know what is causing the issue of low performance on very high end machine, and we can't reproduce it in our office, or on any of the home machines that developers working here have. So please help us help you by getting your data submitted.

Finally, to help you all understand some of the optimizations that we are making. First off I'll start by saying the game runs well on all 30+ machines we have here in our offices, as well as on everyone's home machines. Yes I know this doesn't help those of you that are having problems. But it should help answer the question "how did they release the game performing like this" - well the answer is simple, it ran well on every machine we threw at it.

Since the release however we've discovered that certain hardware is having performance issues with the game that we didn't experience. This isn't "blaming your hardware" or saying "your hardware is crap". But there are LOTS of different types of hardware out there, and they have different strengths and weaknesses. One thing that we discovered was that certain hardware really chokes when you push too many items to render at it (this is called draw calls). It doesn't have anything to do with polygons, it literally is just the number of items we're telling the video card to render. All the hardware we have can rock and roll on a high number of draw calls, but some cannot.

So this is a large part of the optimization work we are doing. We're going through map by map reducing the number of draw calls. Most of the time this is a matter of modifying the way things are set up in the level. Some times it does mean removing objects, but that is only in the most extreme cases (like Pavlovs House). It is very time consuming though, which is why it is taking so long to do. But it should have a very good benefit for people who's hardware is suffering from this (and even a reasonable increase for people without this hardware). Once again some may ask "why didn't you do this before you shipped the game". To that all I can say is, we never saw this issue on our own hardware. The best we can do now is say we're sorry we missed it, and fix the issue as fast as we can.

Last edited by Haarvieh: 09-22-2011 at 03:40 PM.
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Old 09-22-2011, 03:38 PM   #4
laazrockit
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerg View Post
Look here:
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.co...91&postcount=5



And TWI's response:
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.co...5&postcount=11


I don't know what to say about this; on one hand they are trying their best to cut down the performance hit of the game, on the other hand they are also cutting out the feel of the game. Is there really nothing else they can do to optimize? Also can't they at least leave "environmental destruction details" as an option for those with high-end machines?
I really like that response. He told it like it is. PC gamers like to for the sake of ing. He is spot on about people cranking it to ultra regardless of their hardware and then complaining (I'm not saying everyone with performance issues does this, but it is common).
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Old 09-22-2011, 03:40 PM   #5
Curunir
 
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So they are basically... improving performance by making the game even uglier?
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Old 09-22-2011, 03:43 PM   #6
Heids24
 
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Sounds reasonable to me based on the criticism everyone is giving them.
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Old 09-22-2011, 03:44 PM   #7
Heids24
 
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Originally Posted by Curunir View Post
So they are basically... improving performance by making the game even uglier?
What do you exactly think "optimizing" means?
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Old 09-22-2011, 03:44 PM   #8
Haarvieh
 
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Originally Posted by Curunir View Post
So they are basically... improving performance by making the game even uglier?
Do you even still play this game? Didnt you get a refound 3 weeks ago?
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Old 09-22-2011, 03:45 PM   #9
Cocacola123
 
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I don't mind, I am not paying attention to the ground.
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Old 09-22-2011, 03:45 PM   #10
Cimlite
 
 
 
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That's why having "Automatic Settings" is important... either automatically them by going with database of hardware and selecting the appropriate settings, or having some kind of benchmark (like most Capcom games have on the PC) to easily verify what performance you're actually getting on what settings.

I get what the developers are saying here... people think they should be getting more than they actually can etc. but there are solutions around this problem that they could have implemented to "teach" people what their what kind of settings they could actually manage.

Even a small thing like having tooltips when you hover over a setting, stating "High: Mid-range computers - Ultra: VERY high-end computers" (like StarCraft 2 does for example) or something to that effect would go a long way towards that goal.

What they are doing now is an easy way out imo and not what they should be doing.

Last edited by Cimlite: 09-22-2011 at 03:52 PM.
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Old 09-22-2011, 03:45 PM   #11
xshadow84
 
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Well this really doesn't bother me, most of the time I am watching my rather than checking if the ground has bricks or not.
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Old 09-22-2011, 03:45 PM   #12
Curunir
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haarvieh View Post
Do you even still play this game? Didnt you get a refound 3 weeks ago?
Ignoring your response as it has nothing to do with anything, I'll ask again:

So they are basically... improving performance by making the game even uglier?
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Old 09-22-2011, 03:46 PM   #13
Avs
 
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This is what I don't understand. I see a variety of games that require a lot more out of one's specs than what they've shown in the environments. And now they are taking stuff out believing it will help a fraction of the player base. I'm pretty much set on the fact that they aren't able to optimize the engine like Epic can (since they built it). Optimization must be a huge mess right now that they have to resort to removing stuff.
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Old 09-22-2011, 03:47 PM   #14
Chubz123
 
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We're dealing with a bunch of goofballs, I'm afraid. I thought this was obvious ever since the game was released, though. I can't say their methods of "improving performance" by removing detail in maps or goofy explanations for doing so surprise me at all. Red Orchestra 2 has been a mess of epic proportions. It really is Brink all over again. Oh well. At least it's fun to play when you aren't having issues, unlike Brink.
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Old 09-22-2011, 03:48 PM   #15
YAHwarrior
 
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The game ran better before the patches for me. Some people were really having problems but I think a lot of them are just trying to ruin the rep of this great game.
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