Combat system

Cpt.Calavera · 11-01-2011, 05:01 AM

I stumbled upon this interestimg article about the combat system.

http://www.hookedgamers.com/blogs/ch..._standard.html

Even though combat may not be the most important part of Skyrim for many gamers I think this guy's worries are valid. I think the finishing moves will probably give a more satisfying feel to combat this time around tho.

Thoughts?

amirfoox · 11-01-2011, 05:25 AM

While I no longer appreciate the real time battles themselves that much (I much prefer Fallout 3's and NV's VATS system, and wish Skyrim would have incorporated it), I think that's how real-time RPG combat should work - a hit, someone loses HP, rinse and repeat until anyone's dead.

Otherwise it moves the game too much into the action genre, where only quick-reflexes matter, since if you're not defending fast enough, you can't react and you'll die, and if you catch an enemy off-guard once, he will twitch from the blow and you'll be able to continue slashing him until he drops, like what happens in Two Worlds 2 (not an example of a good RPG, judging from playing about 50% through it).

In The Elder Scrolls series, the combat itself is far from perfect. It's one of the series' low-points in my opinion, but it allows a bit more of RPG-feel than other, more action-oriented, RPG games.

AppleShrapnel · 11-01-2011, 05:31 AM

Well, it's yet another guy trying to compare Skyrim's combat with the likes of Dark Souls... that's just silly. :P

I played Two Worlds II, and while fun overall, I found the combat kinda boring; I could easily stun-lock enemies, and once I got my weapon of choice upgraded, it was just a matter of hitting weaker things once or twice. There's enough of a combat focus here, that, with its degree of bleh-ness, I've been letting it gather digital dust for awhile.

Haven't played Witcher 2, but I did briefly play the first. On the whole, It just didn't do anything for me. 2 may have done things better, but it felt so... swimmy, I guess, in the first. Moves looked alright, but i found it to be only slightly less boring than Two Worlds II.

And as for Batman... well, comparing an openworld, first-person rpg with a third-person button masher is on par with, if not worse than, comparing it to Dark Souls' trial-and-error pattern reading approach.

Seriously, if the Elder Scrolls' combat system is made "awesome" or otherwise less Elder Scrolls-y, we're looking at a completely different game altogether.

The only little feature I'd want to add to Skyrim is a Mount & Blade-esque momentum damage bonus. It'd add another level of strategy.

dannythefool · 11-01-2011, 05:45 AM

Dark Souls combat is awesome, and I'd love to have something like it in TES. Still, I'm not sure how one could get the impression that combat is at all important in TES games. I mean, has he even played the previous ones? If they were about combat, and they would be if they had a system like Dark Souls where you have to learn even normal enemies before you can hope to defeat them, TES would feel completely different.

StrikerSmith · 11-01-2011, 05:50 AM

Well in my opionion Dark Messiah had and has still the best combat System ever. There was something with the developers of DM and Skyrim. I don't know what it was about actually but I think Bethesda bought the DM Makers or sth. But Yeah what I've seen does not look "good enough" for todays standards. If I hit a Arm with a Sword it should swing back, same for each body part

carlz0r · 11-01-2011, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amirfoox

I much prefer Fallout 3's and NV's VATS system, and wish Skyrim would have incorporated it

VATS is a Fallout thing, tho... not a Bethesda thing. It's from the older Fallout games, which is why it's included in 3/NV... They wouldn't cross it over into TES.

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrikerSmith

Well in my opionion Dark Messiah had and has still the best combat System ever. There was something with the developers of DM and Skyrim. I don't know what it was about actually but I think Bethesda bought the DM Makers or sth. But Yeah what I've seen does not look "good enough" for todays standards. If I hit a Arm with a Sword it should swing back, same for each body part

Dark Messiah's combat was REALLY fun. I loved the kick button, and using the powers was really fun, especially the freeze thing, which is really similar to the freeze one in Skyrim previews, how it turns the enemies into a stiff ragdoll, and they fall over.

Akumetsu · 11-01-2011, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amirfoox

While I no longer appreciate the real time battles themselves that much (I much prefer Fallout 3's and NV's VATS system, and wish Skyrim would have incorporated it), I think that's how real-time RPG combat should work - a hit, someone loses HP, rinse and repeat until anyone's dead.

Otherwise it moves the game too much into the action genre, where only quick-reflexes matter, since if you're not defending fast enough, you can't react and you'll die, and if you catch an enemy off-guard once, he will twitch from the blow and you'll be able to continue slashing him until he drops, like what happens in Two Worlds 2 (not an example of a good RPG, judging from playing about 50% through it).

In The Elder Scrolls series, the combat itself is far from perfect. It's one of the series' low-points in my opinion, but it allows a bit more of RPG-feel than other, more action-oriented, RPG games.

Incorporating V.A.T.S in to a The Elders Scroll game.....NO, NO, AND NO! Coming from a long time fan of The Fallout series(I'm talking about Fallout, Fallout 2, and Fallout Tactics from Interplay Entertainment and Black Isle) what you just said was like a slap in the face. Things that belong in Fallout should STAY in Fallout and things that belong in The Elders Scrolls should STAY in The Elders Scrolls. It's like you asking Bethesda to take something that already defines Fallout like say V.A.T.S, Pip Boys, Gatling Lasers, and Super Mutants and throwing it into Skyrim which clearly doesn't need those features since it's already a series that is clearly unique in it's own way. From the looks of the leaked footage they've already put in the cinematic kill feature from Fallout New Vegas into Skyrim with some death blows thrown in to spice it up.

Moving on, about the combat and reaction time it's called lowering the difficulty settings it's not hard to change if the combat it too difficult for you. And your comment about Two Worlds 2 not being a good "RPG" is completely wrong yeah sure it has it faults, but can you blame the developers? They aren't a triple A gaming developer like Bethesda or Bioware, but they did some things new things that normal triple A developers haven't tried yet that's what defined Two Worlds 2 and set it apart from other "RPG's". Judging from the leaked game play footage combat might be a bit repetitive due to the lack of the NPC reaction from getting attacked in certain areas like say the arm or leg, but that can easily be remedied with mods from fans.

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrikerSmith

Well in my opionion Dark Messiah had and has still the best combat System ever. There was something with the developers of DM and Skyrim. I don't know what it was about actually but I think Bethesda bought the DM Makers or sth. But Yeah what I've seen does not look "good enough" for todays standards. If I hit a Arm with a Sword it should swing back, same for each body part

Finally someone who shares my opinion about Dark Messiah Might and Magic despite being a underrated game it had the best First Person combat system I've seen, though it takes some time getting used to. Even though the story was linear, lack of true character customization, some what limited and small character progression skills and the ending's poorly done it still remains one of my all time favorite RPGs.

amirfoox · 11-01-2011, 06:20 AM

I know that its a Fallout thing, I just wish they would put something like that system which can help alleviate the twitch-gaming combat of theirs (getting too old for that...)

It has nothing to do with the difficulty setting, its the way the actual combat takes place.

And regarding Two Worlds 2, I don't compare it to a Triple-A game, its just really not my cup of tea when it comes to RPG gameplay.

carlz0r · 11-01-2011, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amirfoox

I know that, carlz0r, I just wish they would put something like that system which can help alleviate the twitch-gaming combat of theirs (getting too old for that...)

I wouldn't call swinging a weapon every 2/3 seconds, and casting spells with a cooldown "twitch" gaming...

Erstok · 11-01-2011, 06:22 AM

You people are missing the point entirely. Elders Scrolls games are not built around combat. It's built around adventure. Complaining about combat in Elders Scrolls games is like saying D&D has boring combat. Give you a hint, people don't play D&D for the combat. What do you think a lot of more die hard Elders Scrolls fans play the games for?

Give you another hint. Elders Scrolls started out as a campaign in D&D.

amirfoox · 11-01-2011, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlz0r

I wouldn't call swinging a weapon every 2/3 seconds, and casting spells with a cooldown "twitch" gaming...

Against one enemy, sure. Against multiple - it's twitch-gaming.

Akumetsu · 11-01-2011, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erstok

You people are missing the point entirely. Elders Scrolls games are not built around combat. It's built around adventure. Complaining about combat in Elders Scrolls games is like saying D&D has boring combat. Give you a hint, people don't play D&D for the combat. What do you think a lot of more die hard Elders Scrolls fans play the games for?

Give you another hint. Elders Scrolls started out as a campaign in D&D.

Already knew that. People here where complaining about the combat system. I like the way The Elder Scrolls is I play it for the exploration and story, combat is just another perk for the game xD.

Narosian · 11-01-2011, 09:32 AM

as long as a weapon swing won't send me flying ragdoll style 50 feet away im fine with whatever combat system skyrim has.

geronimo789 · 11-01-2011, 09:38 AM

I'm rather worried about how they will handle blocking without a shield. If they go left mouse = left weapon and right mouse = right weapon then the block would have to be some keyboard key, or contextual. Neither looks too promising

11-01-2011, 05:01 AM	#1
Cpt.Calavera Join Date: Jan 2011 Reputation: 24 Posts: 226	Combat system I stumbled upon this interestimg article about the combat system. http://www.hookedgamers.com/blogs/ch..._standard.html Even though combat may not be the most important part of Skyrim for many gamers I think this guy's worries are valid. I think the finishing moves will probably give a more satisfying feel to combat this time around tho. Thoughts?

11-01-2011, 06:20 AM	#8
amirfoox Join Date: Aug 2010 Reputation: 46 Posts: 431	I know that its a Fallout thing, I just wish they would put something like that system which can help alleviate the twitch-gaming combat of theirs (getting too old for that...) It has nothing to do with the difficulty setting, its the way the actual combat takes place. And regarding Two Worlds 2, I don't compare it to a Triple-A game, its just really not my cup of tea when it comes to RPG gameplay. Last edited by amirfoox: 11-01-2011 at 06:24 AM.

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11-01-2011, 05:25 AM	#2
amirfoox Join Date: Aug 2010 Reputation: 46 Posts: 431	While I no longer appreciate the real time battles themselves that much (I much prefer Fallout 3's and NV's VATS system, and wish Skyrim would have incorporated it), I think that's how real-time RPG combat should work - a hit, someone loses HP, rinse and repeat until anyone's dead. Otherwise it moves the game too much into the action genre, where only quick-reflexes matter, since if you're not defending fast enough, you can't react and you'll die, and if you catch an enemy off-guard once, he will twitch from the blow and you'll be able to continue slashing him until he drops, like what happens in Two Worlds 2 (not an example of a good RPG, judging from playing about 50% through it). In The Elder Scrolls series, the combat itself is far from perfect. It's one of the series' low-points in my opinion, but it allows a bit more of RPG-feel than other, more action-oriented, RPG games.

11-01-2011, 05:31 AM	#3
AppleShrapnel Join Date: Dec 2009 Reputation: 13 Posts: 157	Well, it's yet another guy trying to compare Skyrim's combat with the likes of Dark Souls... that's just silly. :P I played Two Worlds II, and while fun overall, I found the combat kinda boring; I could easily stun-lock enemies, and once I got my weapon of choice upgraded, it was just a matter of hitting weaker things once or twice. There's enough of a combat focus here, that, with its degree of bleh-ness, I've been letting it gather digital dust for awhile. Haven't played Witcher 2, but I did briefly play the first. On the whole, It just didn't do anything for me. 2 may have done things better, but it felt so... swimmy, I guess, in the first. Moves looked alright, but i found it to be only slightly less boring than Two Worlds II. And as for Batman... well, comparing an openworld, first-person rpg with a third-person button masher is on par with, if not worse than, comparing it to Dark Souls' trial-and-error pattern reading approach. Seriously, if the Elder Scrolls' combat system is made "awesome" or otherwise less Elder Scrolls-y, we're looking at a completely different game altogether. The only little feature I'd want to add to Skyrim is a Mount & Blade-esque momentum damage bonus. It'd add another level of strategy.

11-01-2011, 05:45 AM	#4
dannythefool Join Date: Dec 2009 Reputation: 264 Posts: 2,837	Dark Souls combat is awesome, and I'd love to have something like it in TES. Still, I'm not sure how one could get the impression that combat is at all important in TES games. I mean, has he even played the previous ones? If they were about combat, and they would be if they had a system like Dark Souls where you have to learn even normal enemies before you can hope to defeat them, TES would feel completely different.

11-01-2011, 05:50 AM	#5
StrikerSmith Join Date: Jan 2010 Reputation: 20 Posts: 223	Well in my opionion Dark Messiah had and has still the best combat System ever. There was something with the developers of DM and Skyrim. I don't know what it was about actually but I think Bethesda bought the DM Makers or sth. But Yeah what I've seen does not look "good enough" for todays standards. If I hit a Arm with a Sword it should swing back, same for each body part

11-01-2011, 06:22 AM	#10
Erstok Join Date: Oct 2011 Reputation: 12 Posts: 107	You people are missing the point entirely. Elders Scrolls games are not built around combat. It's built around adventure. Complaining about combat in Elders Scrolls games is like saying D&D has boring combat. Give you a hint, people don't play D&D for the combat. What do you think a lot of more die hard Elders Scrolls fans play the games for? Give you another hint. Elders Scrolls started out as a campaign in D&D.

11-01-2011, 09:32 AM	#13
Narosian Join Date: Sep 2010 Reputation: 6 Posts: 35	as long as a weapon swing won't send me flying ragdoll style 50 feet away im fine with whatever combat system skyrim has.

11-01-2011, 09:38 AM	#14
geronimo789 Join Date: May 2010 Reputation: 505 Posts: 1,819	I'm rather worried about how they will handle blocking without a shield. If they go left mouse = left weapon and right mouse = right weapon then the block would have to be some keyboard key, or contextual. Neither looks too promising