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Old 01-15-2012, 05:18 PM   #16
Shradow
 
 
 
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Originally Posted by Spy-bait View Post
Something I wonder, maybe I'm just un-observant, but does the phlogistinator have any tell to warn players that the Mmmph! meeter is full before the pyro armed with one goes full cupcakes with it? Something obvious like when a medic has an ubercharge built up? because that would probably be useful if there isn't.
Just like you can see the glowy effect on the end of an opponent's Medigun, I'm fairly sure you can see the glowy effect on the Phlog. And like PolyCement said, there is the taunt, unless you do it around a corner to ambush your opponent, which is how you should be using it.
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Old 01-15-2012, 05:21 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spy-bait View Post
Something I wonder, maybe I'm just un-observant, but does the phlogistinator have any tell to warn players that the Mmmph! meeter is full before the pyro armed with one goes full cupcakes with it? Something obvious like when a medic has an ubercharge built up? because that would probably be useful if there isn't.
He has exactly that. Glowing lightning in front of the nozzle. (unless thats only visible in first person)
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Old 01-15-2012, 05:26 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by 4812622 View Post
There are never enough Engineers in a Valve server.
on valve servers, "defence" is synonymous with "engineer spam"
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Old 01-15-2012, 05:43 PM   #19
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on valve servers, "defence" is synonymous with "engineer spam"
Defense=go YER spy, kill them all, and sap like mad.
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Old 01-15-2012, 05:49 PM   #20
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A weapon that is good in one environment and bad in another is the opposite of balance.

It's best to have them balanced in both, acceptable to have it balanced in one.
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Old 01-15-2012, 06:07 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by ph2001 View Post
He has exactly that. Glowing lightning in front of the nozzle. (unless thats only visible in first person)
That might explain why it's hard to notice, either that or people have it charged consistently enough that it just seems "normal" to most of us newbies that only ever see the business end of the thing while it's melting our faces.
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Old 01-15-2012, 06:11 PM   #22
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Agreed.

I only got one recently (crafted one and another IMMEDIATELY DROPPED), but I've found it to be very, very good for trashing bad players, but I have to completely abandon attacking Soldiers or Scouts who know what they're doing.

It'd help if I had the Manmelter for extinguishes or the Detonator for group afterburn. :/
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Old 01-15-2012, 07:19 PM   #23
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Please.. don't compare the phlog to the liberty launcher... Disappointed really, because all this is the same recycled arguments I've been hearing complaining about the phlog. It is about playstyle, and common sense, if things are spammy and sentrys are shutting you down you would just switch weapons. You wouldn't play scout in that environment would you?

The phlog works on generally high skill servers, I've made it work, and I've seen other make it work. It's more dependant on the map, and the classes at play on both teams. If you have a skilled team to work with. Reliable medics, co-ordinated pushes and most importantly teamwork and that works great with the phlog, because it really leans on these things to excel. With a bunch of spammy derps however, you're forced to roam, and it it not great for roaming at all.

It's fine hearing opinions, I knew people were going to hate the phlog, and I thought I was going to hate it too. I thought exactly what you're saying now actually. But saying you're knocking some sense into this phlog debate by just repeating the same arguments against the seemingly quite few players who enjoy it just strikes me as silly.

The weapon is a toy, a damn destructive toy, it doesn't need any tweaks to it.

Last edited by JuncoPartner: 01-15-2012 at 07:21 PM.
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Old 01-15-2012, 07:40 PM   #24
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Is pubstomping a positive game mechanic that should be encouraged?
Is it not? Bad players keep trying to nerf decent weapons because they lack strategy. Then they whine about overpowered weapons. Where do overpowered weapons come from? Simple:

A weapon is "underpowered" to them if it takes any margin of skill/strategy for them to use. So they turn around and suggest weapons with good upsides and insignificant downsides, or "crutches". Then they flip around again and whine about the same weapons they wanted. Then they use the new "overpowered" weapons they created to "pub stomp", and it becomes an issue all over again, because they fail to learn to adapt.

I didn't want to single anyone out, but here is a prime example of what I mean. He suggests a weapon with a ton of upsides, and he doesn't even know what to put for a downside. He just slaps the generic, overused "-50% damage" onto it, as if that somehow makes it balanced. Great upsides, insignificant downside. This is a trend I have seen go on for FAR TO LONG.

This is a vicious cycle that needs to be broken. SPUF needs to realize that overpowered weapons are partially a product of themselves.

How can people expect to discuss weapon balance if they can't even play the game? If anything, it's positive because they actually learn something from their mistakes, learn from being pubstomped 24/7, and finally learn how easy it is to counter what they first called "overpowered".

[/end rant]

TLDR : Balancing weapons around bad players is a horrible idea because it just encourages their stupidity AND it leaves you with more game breaking unlocks. Bad players need to adapt, we don't adapt for them. This is the main issue with the current skill level in the game, to many weapons catering to noobs' needs.

Although I do agree, weapons should be more skill indexed. All weapons should be viable at high level play.

Last edited by Dax77: 01-15-2012 at 08:01 PM.
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Old 01-15-2012, 08:20 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dax77 View Post
Is it not? Bad players keep trying to nerf decent weapons because they lack strategy. Then they whine about overpowered weapons. Where do overpowered weapons come from? Simple:

A weapon is "underpowered" to them if it takes any margin of skill/strategy for them to use. So they turn around and suggest weapons with good upsides and insignificant downsides, or "crutches". Then they flip around again and whine about the same weapons they wanted. Then they use the new "overpowered" weapons they created to "pub stomp", and it becomes an issue all over again, because they fail to learn to adapt.

I didn't want to single anyone out, but here is a prime example of what I mean. He suggests a weapon with a ton of upsides, and he doesn't even know what to put for a downside. He just slaps the generic, overused "-50% damage" onto it, as if that somehow makes it balanced. Great upsides, insignificant downside. This is a trend I have seen go on for FAR TO LONG.

This is a vicious cycle that needs to be broken. SPUF needs to realize that overpowered weapons are partially a product of themselves.

How can people expect to discuss weapon balance if they can't even play the game? If anything, it's positive because they actually learn something from their mistakes, learn from being pubstomped 24/7, and finally learn how easy it is to counter what they first called "overpowered".

[/end rant]

TLDR : Balancing weapons around bad players is a horrible idea because it just encourages their stupidity AND it leaves you with more game breaking unlocks. Bad players need to adapt, we don't adapt for them. This is the main issue with the current skill level in the game, to many weapons catering to noobs' needs.

Although I do agree, weapons should be more skill indexed. All weapons should be viable at high level play.
Okay so a bad player is...
A)Someone who refuses to learn?
B)Someone who hasn't learned yet?
C)Someone who thinks it's A-Ok to curb stomp A and B without mercy because "They should play at my skill level or stop ruining my fun by being easy to stomp"
D)All of the above?
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Old 01-15-2012, 08:22 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spy-bait View Post
Okay so a bad player is...
A)Someone who refuses to learn?
B)Someone who hasn't learned yet?
C)Someone who thinks it's A-Ok to curb stomp A and B without mercy because "They should play at my skill level or stop ruining my fun by being easy to stomp"
D)All of the above?
E: Someone who is bad.
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Old 01-15-2012, 08:32 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by 4812622 View Post
E: Someone who is bad.
Define bad.
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Old 01-15-2012, 08:38 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Spy-bait View Post
That might explain why it's hard to notice, either that or people have it charged consistently enough that it just seems "normal" to most of us newbies that only ever see the business end of the thing while it's melting our faces.
Once again, if the pyro is only being seen when he's building charge or firing the crits, he's doing it right, and if your team is getting mauled by a Phlog pyro, they're not. It may be frustrating, but I've played a lot of teams and players who understand why you don't rush a Phlog pyro recently, and if you don't have a horde of newbies on your team feeding the pyro, MMMPH gets weak fast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spy-bait View Post
Define bad.
Includes, but is not limited to:
Players who keep firing at point blank on a Phlog pyro instead of getting clear.
Spies who think a DR and icicle give them license to screw up, only to feed a Phlog pyro a full charge with one kill.
Scouts who think that a scattergun means they should always go for meatshots, instead of keeping their distance.
Demomen and Soldiers who can't aim well enough to hit me when I jump out of the way of rockets or pipes.
Heavies who can't track me when I circlestrafe them.
Medics who routinely run in front of a patient when the patient stops.
Snipers who get caught on the front line over and over.
etc. etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ungulateman View Post
I've found it to be very, very good for trashing bad players, but I have to completely abandon attacking Soldiers or Scouts who know what they're doing. It'd help if I had the Manmelter for extinguishes or the Detonator for group afterburn. :/
I have both - the detonator pairs with it fairly well, by allowing you to get to places where you aren't expected to be (snipers who think they're safe in the Gpit B tunnels, etc) and build charge at range.

The manmelter, however, feels somewhat disappointing. I like putting people out, but the fire rate decrease feels like forever, even though it isn't. The crits are nice, but if I'm running the Phlog, I don't want to be taking out the MM, as you're much less able to defend yourself with it.

YMMV, as always.

Last edited by Nirruden: 01-15-2012 at 08:43 PM.
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Old 01-15-2012, 08:38 PM   #29
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Since people are insisting on White Knighting over a bad weapon, let's make this clear: When a weapon actually lowers the skill ceiling, it's a bad weapon.

These are your Enforcers, your Tomislavs, and yes, your Phlogistinators.

Learn positioning and setting up backstabs? it, click twice for the same outcome!

Learn jump-spinning and predicting ambushes? it, insta-spinup!

Learn airblasting, ambushing and proper weapon juggling? it, hold down M1, then press M2 for victory.

Terrible weapon design.

Last edited by Rologton: 01-15-2012 at 08:43 PM.
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Old 01-15-2012, 08:45 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Rologton View Post
Since people are insisting on White Knighting over a bad weapon, let's make this clear: When a weapon actually lowers the skill ceiling, it's a bad weapon.

These are your Enforcers, your Tomislavs, and yes, your Phlogistinators.

Learn positioning and setting up backstabs? Fuuuuck it, click twice for the same outcome!

Learn jump-spinning and predicting ambushes? Fuuuuuck it, insta-spinup!

Learn airblasting, ambushing and proper weapon juggling? Fuuuuuuck it, hold down M1, then press M2 for victory.

Terrible weapon design.
I don't get why people call it a crutch, it doesn't make it any easier to do damage, until a point at which everybody around is warned to get the hell away. Ambushing with this is just as effective and something that you need to rely on in order to survive and using your secondaries to maximise damage is even more important when you need to fill Mmmph or die.
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