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Old 03-06-2012, 06:32 AM   #61
kimd41
 
 
 
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Quote:
"Counter-Strike players need to quickly identify their targets, so it’s important that those targets stand out. But as environments have become more richly detailed, it has gotten harder to separate a player from the background."
How about making CT skins black and blue like in CSS/1.6 so it doesnt blend with maps like de_dust?
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Old 03-06-2012, 06:39 AM   #62
Skeith
 
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Train is the perfect map to figure out fog on. Common sightlines on train are some of the longest in CS. ATOM_BG posted various levels of fog last week, and yesterday's update made the level of fog about 50% of what it was.

I can kind of see what Valve is saying here but some of the common sightlines on train like ladder room to CT spawn ramp are still at the extreme distance where you simply can't see them. If fog is a per map thing to help visibility then it should be tailored to the longest possible sightline in the map. At medium distance the fog silhouettes and at long distance it obscures.
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Old 03-06-2012, 06:41 AM   #63
n3vin
 
 
 
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I'm sure after the game is out we'll have an ESEA or Tournament GUI that gives CT's bright blue shirts and T's bright red shirts + server mod that disables fog.

There, problem solved.
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Old 03-06-2012, 06:45 AM   #64
ATOM_BG
 
 
 
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After all, we all will play on public servers, as im from Bulgaria, i'll gonna play in bulgarian CS:GO servers. So everyone will have the chance to disable/reduce the fog
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Old 03-06-2012, 06:47 AM   #65
andy013
 
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It's definitely better than it was last week. I still feel overall that train seems very desaturated and grey. Along with the fog it causes everything to blend together. I'd prefer if the fog was reduced a little more and the saturation increased.
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Old 03-06-2012, 06:47 AM   #66
Skeith
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cals View Post
Saying that "fog can help you see much more clearly", might be accurate for completely new players that are not known with the maps, but in any case of an experienced player, that obviously isn't the case.

While fog might help some players see the outline of an enemy at distance, more experienced players will notice the same enemy just as well regardless of "fog outline". In fact, experienced players are more often annoyed by fog as it makes enemies at even further distances, almost indistinguishable from the fog.

If fog really makes enemies easier to see according to valve's research, why not allow the choice to disable it for players that think otherwise? The players that do, according to valve, will only make things harder for themselves. What's the problem then?

Enable it by default, allow the choice to disable whenever preferable.

Also a good point. Now that it's all out there in the open. Previously people assumed it was a performance cheat for consoles and low end PCs, which it does that pretty well. But since Valve considers it a visibility helper, and cross platform play has been dropped, nothing is lost by letting it be something the user can play with.
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Old 03-06-2012, 06:52 AM   #67
ilv
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _ACID_ View Post
And here's a situation where fog makes someone more visible:

http://acidmaps.net/img/random/fog_train01.jpg
http://acidmaps.net/img/random/fog_train02.jpg


Looking at the blog images, without fog the first and second terrorists heads blend into the scenery. the last one is a black shade who's barely visible on both. Slightly better without fog but that's just the situation on the screen.


It's situational. What's up with all the debate.
Nice screens. Well I will try the new update now ^^
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Old 03-06-2012, 07:00 AM   #68
musser
 
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This seems to be a common problem with a lot of games at the moment, take the battlefield series, it is progressivly getting harder and harder to distinguish between an enemy and a friend.
This is some what acceptable in BF as it is supposed to be a semi realistic war simulator, you can choose different types of camo to blend in etc.

However CS has never been particularly realistic.
I must say I agree with the other people in this thread, the issue of being able to see people is nothing to do with fog, it is down to the fact that because games now have complex shadows most people appear black from the front. This is compounded by the fact most characters are wearing black/grey/dark blue.

If you want characters to stand out more then I suggest you look at the way 1.6 does it....the maps are bright, the characters are wearing green, yellow, white, etc.

From the mouse over fog picture it is only easier to see the further away of the 2 people because he is stood directly in front of the fog line. Put him about 4 foot further back and you would only be able to see a black shape....is that a CT or a T?
This is even illustrated by the fact you can't see the 3rd person stood behind him in the fog in the foggy picture, but you can in the non foggy picture.

There is a brilliant thread that shows what CS:GO would look like with the saturation levels turned up and another one with the fog completely removed. I suggest valve that you combine these 2 into a high saturation/no fog mix....then you will solve both problems at the same time.
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Old 03-06-2012, 07:01 AM   #69
Wonderglue
 
 
 
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The train models are so ugly i can't even look at them. My eyes bleed.

As of fog, the picture clearly points out the advantage at darker areas for newer players.

BUT

The fog needs to be pushed all the way to the end of the map, and it should be toned down further by density. That way, it will look nice, do it's purpose and not obscure anything while having clear silhouettes of the player model.
It should be similar to Source then, which works fine.
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Old 03-06-2012, 07:06 AM   #70
FASTSWiTCH
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musser View Post
This seems to be a common problem with a lot of games at the moment, take the battlefield series, it is progressivly getting harder and harder to distinguish between an enemy and a friend.
This is some what acceptable in BF as it is supposed to be a semi realistic war simulator, you can choose different types of camo to blend in etc.

However CS has never been particularly realistic.
I must say I agree with the other people in this thread, the issue of being able to see people is nothing to do with fog, it is down to the fact that because games now have complex shadows most people appear black from the front. This is compounded by the fact most characters are wearing black/grey/dark blue.

If you want characters to stand out more then I suggest you look at the way 1.6 does it....the maps are bright, the characters are wearing green, yellow, white, etc.

From the mouse over fog picture it is only easier to see the further away of the 2 people because he is stood directly in front of the fog line. Put him about 4 foot further back and you would only be able to see a black shape....is that a CT or a T?
This is even illustrated by the fact you can't see the 3rd person stood behind him in the fog in the foggy picture, but you can in the non foggy picture.

There is a brilliant thread that shows what CS:GO would look like with the saturation levels turned up and another one with the fog completely removed. I suggest valve that you combine these 2 into a high saturation/no fog mix....then you will solve both problems at the same time.
Agree, many games have been ruined because of fog. I remember how disapointed i´ve been after playing GTA 4 for the first time regarding the fog
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Old 03-06-2012, 07:10 AM   #71
Wonderglue
 
 
 
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I don't agree with the saturation. The shades of grey and brown are perfect. It should stay that way. Instead, character models should be easier to spot. But making bright outfits will only make them look ugly and out of place. Which some of the people here clearly want. But i don't. Since there are custom skins for that.

But making them easier to spot without so much fog would be the ideal idea. And if there must be a fog, then the fog line should be moved to the end of the map. Not to the middle.
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Old 03-06-2012, 07:26 AM   #72
amallica
 
 
 
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Ohhh great example above. i like it overall
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Old 03-06-2012, 07:31 AM   #73
robitii
 
 
 
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"The terrorist in the background would be perfectly visible the image wasn't like 500x200"
fog off fog
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Old 03-06-2012, 07:38 AM   #74
rec
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _ACID_ View Post
And here's a situation where fog makes someone more visible:

http://acidmaps.net/img/random/fog_train01.jpg
http://acidmaps.net/img/random/fog_train02.jpg
That's because he's in front of the fog. Anyone inside of the fog would be hidden - as per other videos/photos.

I'd rather see the camper in the back corner as opposed to the dude up close (who I can still see just fine anyway).
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Old 03-06-2012, 07:39 AM   #75
rowin
 
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Originally Posted by Carkasjak View Post
I've done some testing with fogui on bot games, and it's pretty clear that it's easier to see with NO FOG whatsoever, than it is with any other fog setting. This whole thing about needing fog to see better is just stupid. They should simplify textures or add more color saturation to character textures if they want to counter the effects that higher quality has on visibility.
If it really is easier to see enemies with no fog whatsoever, then VALVE is just acting like babies and trying to not feel so bad about implementing a bad idea.
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