Changes in de_dust2_se are unnecessary

[WildCat_ZA]

This week’s update includes de_dust2_se. This is a version of Dust2 with the fog off, props removed, cables removed, and particle effects removed. It was created especially for pro-competitive play and leagues.

The changes that differentiate de_dust2_se from regular de_dust2 are unnecessary for the most part. I'd like to discuss each one in detail:


Fog Off - Perhaps debatable

Fog has been a contentious topic but the contention was mostly focused on de_train. The fog in de_dust2 is not particularly intense. It's purpose seems to be purely aesthetic. Removing it entirely gives de_dust2_se a slightly unfinished/unpolished appearance.

Props Removed - Pointless

Unlike in CS:Source, all the props in CS:GO are small and non-solid. In CS:Source, many of the props were annoying because they were bouncy when you walked into them. In CS:GO, the props don't affect players' movement at all.

Cables Removed - Pointless

Cables appear above the areas where players will be scanning for enemies. They are out-of-the-way and don't add any distracting detail to combat areas.

Particle Effects Removed - Perhaps debatable

The dust clouds that appear in certain areas of the map are fairly subtle and unlikely to reduce visibility. Sometimes they flare up and become less subtle but tweaking them would be better than removing them.

I support the inclusion of alternative versions of maps during the beta for testing different ideas. However, when it comes time to officially release CS:GO, I strongly disagree with keeping any alternative versions in the game.

There's a perception that all Counter-Strike players think of themselves as hot-shot pro gamers and playing on supposedly 'more competitive' versions of maps is what all of them want. Misguided public server operators will inevitably choose to run the _se versions in their map-cycles because they'll think that's what people want. Worst case scenario is that no servers run the proper versions of the maps and we'll all be forced to play the dumbed-down versions.

Instead of having alternative versions in the final release version of the game, the original version should ultimately be tweaked to perfection until nobody has any further complaints. So, if it is deemed necessary, slightly reduce the fog and particle intensity in de_dust2.

What's your opinion on fog and dust clouds in de_dust2? Are they fine as they are now or should their intensity be reduced?



==================================================

My CS:GO beta topics:

• "FIRE IN THE HOLE!"
• Vignetting - Not that fond of it
• Performance Issue with Water on CrossfireX
• Changes in de_dust2_se are unnecessary
• Lost control of in-game menus
• Color Grading & Post Processing - A Close Look
• Stats: Add "Headshot Ratio", please

[n3vin]

I think 99.9% of CS players will disagree with you. Removing the fog and clutter is something we've been nagging Valve about since beta started.

[le fuuu]

Much rather SE than regular.

[Wonderglue]

I will not, by any chance play dumbed down maps like SE.
I agree with you, and i wanted to say something like this on the forums since the latest patch, but i didn't have the courage. Someone finally spoke the truth.

Here, have some rep+

[Vendo]

you are not forced to play it. if the competitive guys wanna play it: let them. not that making that changes was hard or time-sucking.

We got 2 versions now. WHY THE HELL NOT?! More people are happy. Again: if you dont like it: go play the normal version. no need for such a thread at all cuz its pretty senseless, cuz u dont have ANY negative effects.

[le fuuu]

Originally Posted by Wonderglue

I will not, by any chance play dumbed down maps like SE.
I agree with you, and i wanted to say something like this on the forums since the latest patch, but i didn't have the courage. Someone finally spoke the truth.

Here, have some rep+

Dumbed down?
It's crisper with no fog, sky looks better with no cables but either way.
Has no cans or object rolling around...
It's just a clean shooters map.

[mythoughtoncsgo]

Originally Posted by n3vin

I think 99.9% of CS players will disagree with you. Removing the fog and clutter is something we've been nagging Valve about since beta started.

If you read his post carefuly, he has a good point. I'm a competitive 1.6 player too, and I partially agree with him. Props and cables removed, really? Those didn't even affected our gameplay at all! They don't get into our ways.

Just remove the ambient sound and fog that's it.

Visual appeal is really important for the spectators if we want to bring new comers to the game.

Or why valve just change the structure of the d2 map more like 1.6 in se versions. Removing props and cable is just pointless as they don't affect our gameplay at all.

[n3vin]

_se is not dumbed down. It's simply better for competitive play.

[UltrixPrime]

Originally Posted by WildCat_ZA

...

Valve appears to be providing options and alternatives. That is precisely what is needed. One of the problems atm seems to be that too many people have a "one size must fit all and everything must have exactly 1 way of working" mindset when clearly Valve is heading in the direction of having different things, tweaks, settings, maps, etc to appeal to different crowds thereby pleasing as many as possible.

Thus the "you vill drikz zee coca cola and you vill like it or elze" approach is the what Valve was accused, perhaps with some merit, of doing in the past and what they are trying to get away from now.

Having more than one variation on the same thing is a perfectly valid way of doing so.

[Vendo]

Originally Posted by mythoughtoncsgo

Just remove the ambient sound and fog that's it.

I hope they gonna remove the ambient sounds for the competitive maps....or at least give us a server-side cvar.

[Wonderglue]

Originally Posted by le fuuu

Dumbed down?
It's crisper with no fog, sky looks better with no cables but either way.
Has no cans or object rolling around...
It's just a clean shooters map.

Dude. It's lessened down. I like the no fog thing. But that's the only thing i like so far.
I just love the props, they don't affect gameplay, they are there just for the eyecandy. And i love eyecandy.

Cables and props don't affect gameplay, particles are debatable.
But i don't want to dust2_se become standard and neither do i want every single server running that map all the time instead of the original. An alternative is always nice, but only as an alternative.

[mythoughtoncsgo]

Originally Posted by Vendo

I hope they gonna remove the ambient sounds for the competitive maps....or at least give us a server-side cvar.

They said they will Again, removing props and cables is just pointless since they don't affect our gameplay.

[Vendo]

Originally Posted by mythoughtoncsgo

They said they will

pls, quote, source...dude...pls.. if thats true..i gonna hug you in a non-gay way.

[mythoughtoncsgo]

Originally Posted by Vendo

pls, quote, source...dude...pls.. if thats true..i gonna hug you in a non-gay way.

http://i.imgur.com/pnvGt.jpg

SCREAM
Referenced post #46 by nya
#44 I tried the se variation of de_dust2 and it still had all of the ambient noise.
#46 they are still tweaking it, but it is expected to be completely removed as they move along in all se maps.

ido replied when it was mentioned:

"Technically, we removed the soundscape entities, which drive the majority of ambient sounds. There's probably a bit more work left to do to find more sound-generating entities and remove them from the shared map instance."

[WildCat_ZA]

Originally Posted by Vendo

you are not forced to play it. if the competitive guys wanna play it: let them. not that making that changes was hard or time-sucking.

We got 2 versions now. WHY THE HELL NOT?! More people are happy. Again: if you dont like it: go play the normal version. no need for such a thread at all cuz its pretty senseless, cuz u dont have ANY negative effects.

In one of the last few paragraphs of my original post, I explained that the possibility exists that we may well be forced to play it. If you wish to counter that point, you'll need to back your argument up with reason. Right now, it looks like you didn't even read the post fully.

Originally Posted by UltrixPrime

Valve appears to be providing options and alternatives. That is precisely what is needed. One of the problems atm seems to be that too many people have a "one size must fit all and everything must have exactly 1 way of working" mindset when clearly Valve is heading in the direction of having different things, tweaks, settings, maps, etc to appeal to different crowds thereby pleasing as many as possible.

For any competitive game to truly thrive, it's important that the game play experience of casual pub server players is as similar as possible to the competitive play experience. The more disparities you introduce, the more difficult it becomes for casual players to transition into competitive play.