Beta Feedback: AWP Design and Balance Perspective

[n3vin]

I'm working on a video right now that compares the AWP in all versions of CS, even Pro Mod. Hopefully the issue is clearer when you actually see all the different versions in action.

[Streetbum]

Originally Posted by Sushbag

But it isn't "insanely easy to counter". If it was, nobody would use it and it wouldn't be so powerful.

And the skill ceiling with the AWP isn't high: it's set a certain level that to me is actually fairly low. Much, much lower than the AK47 for example. With the AWP, if I know the maps, have a knack for timings, have experience enough to make good predictions about player behavior, and understand how best to use the quirks of the AWP's design, I can get tons of kills without much effort. The actual use of the gun is quite easy. With instant scoping for full accuracy, you don't even have to lie in wait for enemies while scoped in; you can just run around waiting to encounter an enemy regardless of range, as I've already described.

Of course I wish the skill ceiling was higher for the AWP, because that would benefit the entire game across the board.

2 things can be learned w/ the AK. Quickly aiming/bursting for kills, and learning spray patterns for kills.

W/ the AWP, players can scope/kill, noscope, learn to quickscope, and need to learn when to switch to other weapons before the enemy has closed in too much. Ive seen it mentioned as well, the idea of offensive AWPing. Anyone can can camp with an AWP, but actually reaching the skill ceiling on that weapon means being able to rush with it, help your team, look the right way, and usually be making calls and helping coordinate.

Which has a higher skill ceiling? Emphasis on the noscope, because anyone who acts like actually getting consistent skill at noscoping is easy is either trolling or fronting. I just named like 5 ways in which the AWP has been slightly nerfed from CSS to this game, too, and you've ignored them. Ill repeat, the problem is very clearly in the rifles themselves. I agree the AWP is a little OP right now, but the fix isnt to ruin a gun. Its to make multiple others useful. If I have an AUG, I will beat an AWPer at LEAST 50% of the time. The AK/M4 should be the same.

[spotti]

Originally Posted by hendrix100000

Yeah it's true that it's a bit more difficult for public players in regards to the awp, but under that argument you can claim nearly everything in the game is imbalanced. A player that uses flashbangs well playing against somebody who doesn't understand positioning would totally destroy the latter player. That doesn't mean that flashbangs are too powerful. It just means the latter player needs to learn how to position themselves. Footsteps and weapon fire can give away an enemies position like nothing else in the game when you are using headphones. Should 3D sound positioning be eliminated so that people who use speakers don't get killed too often? If HPE starts nerfing things left and right to accommodate people that don't understand how to counter strategies or weapons what will result is a dumbed down version of CS with no depth. Nobody wants that!

BTW, I'm not flaming you here, I just want to point out that the game needs to be balanced up (acknowledging players can use the effective counters) than down (nerfing everything so counters become unnecessary).

I know but these things you mentioned are easier to do and are kind of basic knowledge of any FPS game (footsteps, angles, map knowledge and so on). AWP is a tricky one as you have to play as a team and communicate to execute a good anti strat.

[hendrix100000]

Originally Posted by spotti

I know but these things you mentioned are easier to do and are kind of basic knowledge of any FPS game (footsteps, angles, map knowledge and so on). AWP is a tricky one as you have to play as a team and communicate to execute a good anti strat.

Sure, but since we will have matchmaking for public games it will keep all the really good awpers away from the new players. By the time they get to the point where they will notice good awpers they should understand teamplay and using smoke grenades. If they don't, they will at least be at the point where other people in the server will know that and they should catch on quickly. Matchmaking fixes 99% of the problems new players encounter in a brutally competitive game.

[Sleepykins]

But even if you balance around a higher skill ceiling, ie AWP remains highly powerful and you need very strong strats to counter an AWPER that knows what they are doing and is positioned correctly, it becomes an issue.

The AWP is the only gun in the game that makes you go "There is an AWPer over here, I can't go this way", there is very little that isn't advantageous with an AWP, the only thing you can't effectively do with it is rush a position. You move slower, but you should be effectively positioning yourself to be able to quickscope positions as needed where you won't have to move all that much until you have to switch to a new area. It costs the "most", but not by a lot, only enough where you might have to get 3 more kills or win another round.

If it had a slightly slower firing rate, or at least considerably lower accuracy if you try to continuously quick-scope an entry point it would probably balance it out more, or even if it cost a considerable amount more where if you actually aren't the best at it you wouldn't want to pick it up in competitive play. It's really easy to say "Lets make this be a high skill ceiling weapon", if people truly feel it takes that much skill to use as effectively as is often seen then it will be worth a far higher price than M4/AK, even if its around double the price, if someone is skilled enough to use it. If you are able to have enough money to buy it and do buy it, it would be assumed you are "good" enough to want to do so, so any kills you get with it would be justified as far as balancing it. Currently its not really hard to save up for an AWP and then just go to town.

I mean even on the competitive side this would probably be a justified change to a certain extent, but its not like counter-strike is the top played game every day because all 30,000 of those players are playing competitively at that time. Its more of a game played in a "casual" server setting frequently than anything else, but with a strong competitive scene behind it, much like Quake 3 was back in the day.

TL: DR

AWP currently has far more advantages than disadvantages compared to the other guns, clearly can't make the M4/AK all perfectly accurate and capable of single shot non-hs kills or even really excessively high damage body shots, so it only makes sense to tone down AWP power slightly in some other way.

Speed/Accuracy/Price are the 3 routes to doing this, whatever feels best is probably what to go for when balancing.

[samdaman895]

Originally Posted by Sleepykins

But even if you balance around a higher skill ceiling, ie AWP remains highly powerful and you need very strong strats to counter an AWPER that knows what they are doing and is positioned correctly, it becomes an issue.

The AWP is the only gun in the game that makes you go "There is an AWPer over here, I can't go this way", there is very little that isn't advantageous with an AWP, the only thing you can't effectively do with it is rush a position. You move slower, but you should be effectively positioning yourself to be able to quickscope positions as needed where you won't have to move all that much until you have to switch to a new area. It costs the "most", but not by a lot, only enough where you might have to get 3 more kills or win another round.

If it had a slightly slower firing rate, or at least considerably lower accuracy if you try to continuously quick-scope an entry point it would probably balance it out more, or even if it cost a considerable amount more where if you actually aren't the best at it you wouldn't want to pick it up in competitive play. It's really easy to say "Lets make this be a high skill ceiling weapon", if people truly feel it takes that much skill to use as effectively as is often seen then it will be worth a far higher price than M4/AK, even if its around double the price, if someone is skilled enough to use it. If you are able to have enough money to buy it and do buy it, it would be assumed you are "good" enough to want to do so, so any kills you get with it would be justified as far as balancing it. Currently its not really hard to save up for an AWP and then just go to town.

I mean even on the competitive side this would probably be a justified change to a certain extent, but its not like counter-strike is the top played game every day because all 30,000 of those players are playing competitively at that time. Its more of a game played in a "casual" server setting frequently than anything else, but with a strong competitive scene behind it, much like Quake 3 was back in the day.

TL: DR

AWP currently has far more advantages than disadvantages compared to the other guns, clearly can't make the M4/AK all perfectly accurate and capable of single shot non-hs kills or even really excessively high damage body shots, so it only makes sense to tone down AWP power slightly in some other way.

Speed/Accuracy/Price are the 3 routes to doing this, whatever feels best is probably what to go for when balancing.

It has advantages because it is the most expensive (viably) weapon in the game. You are completely ignoring the price point. Yes, in 32 player pubs with 16000 infinite cash the AWP is overpowered because there is no downside to buying it. Balancing it around a pub scenario is like balancing Starcraft 2 around bronze league suggestions, or nerfing a HoN hero like Night Hound because 1300 psr level players think hes too "powerful." The AWP doesn't have amazing counters at the moment because hidden path has removed first shot accuracy and the second flash. With the reinstatement of those the AWP will present no more of a problem than it did in 1.6 (in which it was perfectly balanced.)

[Sleepykins]

Originally Posted by samdaman895

It has advantages because it is the most expensive (viably) weapon in the game. You are completely ignoring the price point. Yes, in 32 player pubs with 16000 infinite cash the AWP is overpowered because there is no downside to buying it. Balancing it around a pub scenario is like balancing Starcraft 2 around bronze league suggestions, or nerfing a HoN hero like Night Hound because 1300 psr level players think hes too "powerful." The AWP doesn't have amazing counters at the moment because hidden path has removed first shot accuracy and the second flash. With the reinstatement of those the AWP will present no more of a problem than it did in 1.6 (in which it was perfectly balanced.)

Well I'm not saying to balance it around pure pubs..I'm simply saying balancing it only with the intent of its functionality making sense in the competitive seen makes no sense. You can manage to make both pools happy with a little finesse. This is why AK/M4/Deag all function in a similar fashion as they would expect to in the competitive scene as they do in pubs. The AWPS however don't, and never have.

We aren't trying to make this 1.6, but learn what worked well from 1.6 and update it if makes sense. I'm in no way saying the AWP hasn't functioned well in 1.6, simply saying that it could probably be balanced to an even higher degree while maintaining its current skill cap, maybe even increasing it, as well as removing any issues that might arise with it in casual mode.

CS is really about the headshots as far as aim goes, and as long as you have a gun that isn't too expensive that can single shot body mass with near perfect accuracy I will never personally find the AWP completely balanced. It just makes no sense when lined up with other weapons at its current price point/disadvantages. Like I said I'm not saying dramatic changes, simply tone it down a little in some way, while toning up M4/AK to where they should be so that all 3 are more or less equivalent in terms of their Utility+Kill capability vs cost.

[UltrixPrime]

Originally Posted by Overclocker_

Agreed. It's too good at everything while every other gun has tradeoffs.

AWP has always been OP - that's the point. You pay a lot of money, and if you hit, you kill (well, in GO, seems like AWP does less damage than previously, but w/e).

In exchange, you are moving slower than a WWI tank, your reload time is glacial and you have very few rounds in the clip which means if you miss a lot, the glacial reload time kicks in.

All in all, the new AWP seems ok. The problem with the AWP has *always* been that for some players, it is the ultimate camping weapon. Thus, the AWP tends to slow down game play because some people will simply camp and ignore the objective unless it's a hostage map and they get T in which case camping is inline with the objective.

I'd rather see them turn the scout/deagle back into a fast moving assault combo and pretty much leave the GO AWP where it is. An agile scout/deagler that can shoot is an additional offset to the camping AWPer that is missing from GO.

Imo, they should balance the AWP with the other weapons, not the other way around.

[kenjii]

the awp isn't overpowered. it comes as a high price and is pretty useless in competitive situations if it isn't used properly. close range and mid range awping is not an easy thing to do. and if you do encounter such a situation, it is more than likely that you will die if you are carrying an awp as you only have one shot and then a pistol against a rifle (most of the time). once you die thats 4750 gone from your cash which is a ♥♥♥♥ load. don't need to nerf the awp it is fine as it is.

the awp is COMPLETELY FINE for COMPETITIVE cs. however that is for the competitive side of cs. for casual play as in pub servers it has been a bit op as source has servers with -snipers. but that is for casual play. do not touch the awp for the competitive side but if some things are done such as restricting awps to one per team in a casual game then most people will be fine with that.

p.s. if you ever watch any competitive matches you will see in most cases that the top fraggers are not awpers. so DO NOT MESS WITH IT.

[Krovvy]

Originally Posted by Sleepykins

But even if you balance around a higher skill ceiling, ie AWP remains highly powerful and you need very strong strats to counter an AWPER that knows what they are doing and is positioned correctly, it becomes an issue.

The AWP is the only gun in the game that makes you go "There is an AWPer over here, I can't go this way", there is very little that isn't advantageous with an AWP, the only thing you can't effectively do with it is rush a position. You move slower, but you should be effectively positioning yourself to be able to quickscope positions as needed where you won't have to move all that much until you have to switch to a new area. It costs the "most", but not by a lot, only enough where you might have to get 3 more kills or win another round.

If it had a slightly slower firing rate, or at least considerably lower accuracy if you try to continuously quick-scope an entry point it would probably balance it out more, or even if it cost a considerable amount more where if you actually aren't the best at it you wouldn't want to pick it up in competitive play. It's really easy to say "Lets make this be a high skill ceiling weapon", if people truly feel it takes that much skill to use as effectively as is often seen then it will be worth a far higher price than M4/AK, even if its around double the price, if someone is skilled enough to use it. If you are able to have enough money to buy it and do buy it, it would be assumed you are "good" enough to want to do so, so any kills you get with it would be justified as far as balancing it. Currently its not really hard to save up for an AWP and then just go to town.

I mean even on the competitive side this would probably be a justified change to a certain extent, but its not like counter-strike is the top played game every day because all 30,000 of those players are playing competitively at that time. Its more of a game played in a "casual" server setting frequently than anything else, but with a strong competitive scene behind it, much like Quake 3 was back in the day.

TL: DR

AWP currently has far more advantages than disadvantages compared to the other guns, clearly can't make the M4/AK all perfectly accurate and capable of single shot non-hs kills or even really excessively high damage body shots, so it only makes sense to tone down AWP power slightly in some other way.

Speed/Accuracy/Price are the 3 routes to doing this, whatever feels best is probably what to go for when balancing.

The very reason it should remain in the game the way it is. It changes and varies gameplay so it's not just the stale run and gun.

[Sleepykins]

Originally Posted by Krovvy

The very reason it should remain in the game the way it is. It changes and varies gameplay so it's not just the stale run and gun.

Any effective sniper would vary the gameplay a bit. The reason less people scout is for 2 reasons.
1. Its wayyyy less accurate
2. It requires headshot precision

I feel with CS being so accuracy focused having a gun with so much power behind the largest mass of hitbox is silly.

the fact that AWPing feels like the only true sniping option competitively seems flawed. And literally any negative someone has posted about the AWP is only really a factor in someone who puts themselves in a poor situation or can't AWP properly to begin with. I don't see whats wrong with maintaining/raising the skill cap on a gun with that much power by making it be more headshot based, competitive level players would still be quite handy with it even if body shots were only a very large amount of health etc instead of insta-kills.


Anyway just my thoughts on it, people seem to blindly just say "LOL SAME BALANCE AS 1.6" instead of fleshing out the reasoning behind not changing that balance for a brand new game. Just because it worked with 1.6 doesn't mean it can't be adapted or changed to work better.

[HeatSurge]

You've made an excellent argument, Sleepy. I actually suggested the hip-to-scope delay here: http://forums.steampowered.com/forum....php?t=2605568

After playing CS:GO some more though, I can see how the AWSM (AWP) might be okay the way it is. While, from considerations of realism, running around with a high-powered sniper rifle, and bringing up a sniper rifle to your eye level instantly (and then down again) is completely stupid and does look "silly" as you put it, it does have its place, somewhat, in the way the game is.

The AWP is kind of a really "hardcore" weapon. If you get good with it, you can easily dominate entire teams of players (who do not coordinate or are not that great) with good positioning. However, with smoke grenades, flashes, and teamwork, it is possible to push even a "godlike" AWP user. Also, consider that you only get $50 (I think) per kill right now with it... so, in essence, if you make a mistake with the weapon (get killed and get it stolen by the other team) the economical consequences are significant.

There is a side to the story where a team which wins 2-3 rounds gets too much power, and the other team gets increasingly little power and ability to "come back," and I've seen that happen in games so far. In essence, you can say that because a team's winning, losing an awp or a round might not really mean much, because they can just buy another AWP because they've been winning so much and have all that money. I'd like the ability to "come back" a little more easily in the game. I haven't really been coordinating with a team to "save up" (intentionally buy cheaper weapons) and have a coordinated round where we all buy good weapons though, and that's what it would take to "come back" really, when the game is close. It's really hard to come back though, once you start losing. The tendency is definitely to lose more.

Overall, I still totally dislike the idea of a weapon (in any game) which kills with 1 shot to the torso/hands even with armor, and I would love to see the torso/hand damage reduced to non-lethal with armor and lethal without armor, or the introduction of hip-to-scope delay (my thread above and your OP).

However, you have to see the other side of the argument, that maybe taking the AWSM too far towards the "hard to use" category might make it used very rarely, which I would not like to see in CS:GO (a non-popular weapon).

[Krovvy]

Originally Posted by Sleepykins

Any effective sniper would vary the gameplay a bit. The reason less people scout is for 2 reasons.
1. Its wayyyy less accurate
2. It requires headshot precision

I feel with CS being so accuracy focused having a gun with so much power behind the largest mass of hitbox is silly.

the fact that AWPing feels like the only true sniping option competitively seems flawed. And literally any negative someone has posted about the AWP is only really a factor in someone who puts themselves in a poor situation or can't AWP properly to begin with. I don't see whats wrong with maintaining/raising the skill cap on a gun with that much power by making it be more headshot based, competitive level players would still be quite handy with it even if body shots were only a very large amount of health etc instead of insta-kills.


Anyway just my thoughts on it, people seem to blindly just say "LOL SAME BALANCE AS 1.6" instead of fleshing out the reasoning behind not changing that balance for a brand new game. Just because it worked with 1.6 doesn't mean it can't be adapted or changed to work better.

The reason people don't use the Scout often is because it's not reliable. It's damage is too low opposed to the slow rate of fire, it needs to be buffed. There's almost absolutely no reason to use it over regular rifles.

It's because the AWP was well designed. The one hit kill is is the only thing the gun has going for it, and because of it changes gameplay on a map completely when one is bought. If you can't see the cons in the gun, being the most expensive practical weapon, slowest rate of fire, slowest movement speed, only accurate while standing still and only useful in selective spots of the map then you really need to take another look. Competitive players won't use it if the one positive is taken away, I can almost guarantee that.

About people putting themselves in bad situations, that's almost always the players that complain about the AWP in my experience. Always posting these scenarios where players run to their death over and over instead of completing a map objective or doing anything to actually overcome the AWP instead of peaking directly into them.

Also the reason many players just put "LOL SAME BALANCE AS 1.6" is because no one wants to argue this again. This has come up so many times from new players over the last decade that's it's just old. It's not even up to debate for most Counter-Strike players, it's been balanced, leave it alone.

[maxisarg]

you got a point there xP

[Sleepykins]

Originally Posted by Krovvy

The reason people don't use the Scout often is because it's not reliable. It's damage is too low opposed to the slow rate of fire, it needs to be buffed. There's almost absolutely no reason to use it over regular rifles.

Thus why it should get upped.

Originally Posted by Krovvy

It's because the AWP was well designed. The one hit kill is is the only thing the gun has going for it, and because of it changes gameplay on a map completely when one is bought. If you can't see the cons in the gun, being the most expensive practical weapon, slowest rate of fire, slowest movement speed, only accurate while standing still and only useful in selective spots of the map then you really need to take another look. Competitive players won't use it if the one positive is taken away, I can almost guarantee that.

Originally Posted by Krovvy

Allow for slightly faster movement and lower damage etc, I really don't get how insta-kill chest shots were ever okay in the minds of skillful players. I'd rather have nothing insta-kill outside of headshotting but have advantages/disadvantages of price/speed/accuracy/damage where nothing can insta-kill without headshotting, that in my opinion allows for the highest skill ceiling with the highest chance of breaking free from "the 4" that have been all CS has been about for 10 years.

Originally Posted by Krovvy

About people putting themselves in bad situations, that's almost always the players that complain about the AWP in my experience. Always posting these scenarios where players run to their death over and over instead of completing a map objective or doing anything to actually overcome the AWP instead of peaking directly into them.

It holds a lot of positioning power and takes far more tactical and skill advantage to overcome than any other weapon in the game, regardless of its higher price point that that much is true.

Originally Posted by Krovvy

Also the reason many players just put "LOL SAME BALANCE AS 1.6" is because no one wants to argue this again. This has come up so many times from new players over the last decade that's it's just old. It's not even up to debate for most Counter-Strike players, it's been balanced, leave it alone.

"Give us a prettier 1.6"

I am no way saying to do anything definitely. I just find it silly when we have this brand new game in such a literal, testing, beta, to simply say "Just do what 1.6 did, it worked great there." We have this new game, lets play around with things, try things out, if it doesn't work it'll be clear and Valve will revert it before launch, but there is no harm in testing different degrees of balance with all the guns, even the sacred 4.