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Old 04-14-2012, 08:18 AM   #16
Rossrox
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bonescr4per View Post
And how's that even remotely similar to deliberate ethnic cleansings, pogroms, POW massacres, mass rapings, an the like over the course of the whole WWII? There is no comparison.
Dont defend either side, no side can be defended in any war, see what happened in Vietnam, the effect it had on both the Vietnamese and the soldiers who were forced to fight with no experience with convential methods.

Never justify war.
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Old 04-14-2012, 06:31 PM   #17
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Am i justifying anything? Especially war? WTF? I'm just saying, the Russians were no better than N.azis. They died in millions, because they were ruled by a power hungry moron, in no way better than Hitler (Stalin was actually worse). But they would support Hitler if he hadn't attack them. Ever heard of the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact? They just happened to switch sides at one time. That still didn't put an end to their war crimes, even on people who suffered greatly from the German invasion beforehand.

And defenders can, and should be defended. In every war, ever. I don't know where are you from, maybe in your country robbers, killers and rapists are considered in no way less moral than a decent, hard working citizen who's fallen victim to their crimes. But in the civilized world, we do have the moral right to call them for who they are, and separate them from their victims.
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Old 04-15-2012, 04:38 AM   #18
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Alright calm down, all Im saying is, dont say one side is worse than the other. Which you said your not. Maybe Im wrong to say what I said, what I should say Is, war can never be fully justified.
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Old 04-15-2012, 02:48 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by bonescr4per View Post
Am i justifying anything? Especially war? WTF? I'm just saying, the Russians were no better than N.azis. They died in millions, because they were ruled by a power hungry moron, in no way better than Hitler (Stalin was actually worse). ......

you need to relax, you are confusing STALIN the leader with ALL russian.

This is your logic: So if Stalin is bad, so must all Russians or Russia country as a whole.
Another example: So if Mao is bad, so must all Chinese.
Another modern example: So if Kim Jong Un is bad, so is all North Korean

Very illogical. Learn to SPLIT up the ruling party (especially a dictatorship) with the people that actually got ruled over.

I have seen this type of arguements made by so many uneducated people online. You know a few thing about how Russia agreed to split Poland with Germany, and Germany backstabs. So what? Most people interested in WW2 history do as well.

Furthermore, those leaders are bad. Most can agree they are BAD for their OWN people. When they deal with outside world, they might hurt other country's interest. BUT who doesnt, look at USA. Been invading other countries for their OWN interest. Do you think people at those countries feel right they get invaded? (Ever wonder why most countries after get their regime toppled want USA pulled out ASAP?)

Finally to our Russian friend (OP), this is very typical of western culture. You play their game you will undoubtly see these things.

Last edited by HellAvenger: 04-15-2012 at 02:58 PM.
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Old 04-15-2012, 10:02 PM   #20
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i think what we figured out is there are no good guys in war
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Old 04-16-2012, 05:01 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by HellAvenger View Post
*snip*
And what has Stalin to do with every single act of , murder or torture committed by the Red Army? Now YOU are the one who's hiding behind one person, to justify all the wrongdoings of every single troop, who wrote his own lines in the history of the soviet war crimes.
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Old 04-16-2012, 10:07 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by bonescr4per View Post
And what has Stalin to do with every single act of , murder or torture committed by the Red Army? Now YOU are the one who's hiding behind one person, to justify all the wrongdoings of every single troop, who wrote his own lines in the history of the soviet war crimes.
you are hopeless. your attitude show that you are leaning towards extremism.

There is no point arguing with extremists. good luck in your life. just dont pull a Breivik. lol

looks like you just sign up in april to posts these huh? (were you even born in WW2? such hating and vile comments, no wonder there is no peace and stability in the current world. Keep on dwelling on the past)

individual soldiers... hiding behind one person.... OK lol, then USA must be bad, because remmeber recently a US soldier went on execution style masscre in afganistan? NO? executed sevreal children and mother? STILL DONT RING A BELL?

If you are a child, I will prob understand your lack of more refined belief. Whos feeding you so much hate anyway? which media? parents?

Last edited by HellAvenger: 04-16-2012 at 10:16 AM.
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Old 04-17-2012, 02:31 AM   #23
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Skimming this thread left me disgusted by people today.

To the people jumping on the "ZOMG SOVIETS WERE SAINTS, AND HEROES OF THE WORLD WARS2!", they were at LEAST as bad as the when it came to war crimes. The allies were not exactly saints either, but for a different reason. They were cowards, that refused to push east, and crush the soviet menace. They literally handed over civilians that had fled the soviet death machine, KNOWING they would be executed the moment they were handed over.

The entire reason the "allies" initially entered the war, was because of alliances with Poland (yes, we actually declared war first on Germany.). We didn't even have the moral fortitude to force the soviets to get out of Poland, and all of the other occupied countries they happily took over.

That's WITHOUT looking at the cold hard truth that the soviets were happy to remain neutral, and have a non-aggression pact with Germany for the duration of the war, selling them raw materials to fuel the German war machine. That, and their own wars of aggression against Poland, and Finland.

If anything, if this game portrays the soviets as the enemy, they probably decided to do alternative history where the world was sane, and went down a better path.
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Old 04-17-2012, 04:01 AM   #24
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some threads are worth a lol
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Old 04-17-2012, 05:01 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikoshi View Post
Skimming this thread left me disgusted by people today.

To the people jumping on the "ZOMG SOVIETS WERE SAINTS, AND HEROES OF THE WORLD WARS2!", they were at LEAST as bad as the when it came to war crimes. The allies were not exactly saints either, but for a different reason. They were cowards, that refused to push east, and crush the soviet menace. They literally handed over civilians that had fled the soviet death machine, KNOWING they would be executed the moment they were handed over.

The entire reason the "allies" initially entered the war, was because of alliances with Poland (yes, we actually declared war first on Germany.). We didn't even have the moral fortitude to force the soviets to get out of Poland, and all of the other occupied countries they happily took over.

That's WITHOUT looking at the cold hard truth that the soviets were happy to remain neutral, and have a non-aggression pact with Germany for the duration of the war, selling them raw materials to fuel the German war machine. That, and their own wars of aggression against Poland, and Finland.

If anything, if this game portrays the soviets as the enemy, they probably decided to do alternative history where the world was sane, and went down a better path.
Look who's talking, someone who likes to vilify the Russians and portray the Western Allies as saints instead. If driving the German invaders out makes you a war criminal, then the Allies are even worse, considering bombing of Dresden or even Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed hundreds of thousands of civilians. about Stalin all you want, but the Soviets has every right to defend their homeland from German aggression.

Last edited by Astrixzero: 04-17-2012 at 05:05 AM.
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Old 04-17-2012, 10:08 AM   #26
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Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikoshi View Post
Skimming this thread left me disgusted by people today.....

The entire reason the "allies" initially entered the war, was because of alliances with Poland (yes, we actually declared war first on Germany.). We didn't even have the moral fortitude to force the soviets to get out of Poland, and all of the other occupied countries they happily took over.

That's WITHOUT looking at the cold hard truth that the soviets were happy to remain neutral, and have a non-aggression pact with Germany for the duration of the war, selling them raw materials to fuel the German war machine. That, and their own wars of aggression against Poland, and Finland.

If anything, if this game portrays the soviets as the enemy, they probably decided to do alternative history where the world was sane, and went down a better path.

LOL!! you are as crazy as it gets apparently.

ALRIGHT, ill take a bite on your neutrality argument.

You arguement comes downs to simple point of: Russian are fine to let Poland get invaded as long as they dont get attacked by Germany. Therefore they are BAD.

FINE. my counter arguement. USA want to play neutral as well, we will provide British and its colonies with war supplies but we aint participating in an European war. (Public Opinion) USA did not wish to enter the war UNTIL Japan attacked Pearl Harbour AND Germany declared war on USA.(Hitler even said when Japan declared war on US, "Now we have an ally that has never been defeated in war for 3000 years!" -Hitler was refering to Japan as ally if you are too thick to follow)

lol, read more history books on WW2 before spamming forum with one sided arguements.

BTW a funny comment on your name, Mikoshi. That is a JAPANESE name, who was also in AXIS. your moraility is pretty messed up consider what they done in Asia. OR does ASIAN masscres by Japaneses are all fine? you have a very bias view if that is the case.

Lets see, if you want to know more. buy a book called, "the complete history of WW2." It covers everything in big brushes, but go into pretty detail about jewish masscre figures for some reason. It might be a boring read for you, but well at least you have a better appreciation of how the WORLD is not just BLACK and WHITE. (that book is already USA biased)

ONE MORE THING, base on your logic. Allies should become like german naz and invade Russia and start killing? WTH is wrong with you? are you Breivik with an identity crisis? "German is bad, Japan is good, Russia is bad" LOl

Last edited by HellAvenger: 04-17-2012 at 10:34 AM.
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Old 04-17-2012, 12:50 PM   #27
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You arguement comes downs to simple point of: Russian are fine to let Poland get invaded as long as they dont get attacked by Germany. Therefore they are BAD.
Because Russia remained neutral in the invasion of poland right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland

Quote:
BTW a funny comment on your name, Mikoshi. That is a JAPANESE name, who was also in AXIS. your moraility is pretty messed up consider what they done in Asia. OR does ASIAN masscres by Japaneses are all fine? you have a very bias view if that is the case.
I never once claimed that Japan didn't do terrible things during the war. I do believe my main points were that the soviets were extremely barbaric during the war. Someone already pointed it out in this thread, but you really do need to read about the soviet war crimes that were committed not just on german civilians, but also on countries that germany had conquered, and the soviets "liberated" (by liberated I mean they just conquered them).


Quote:
ONE MORE THING, base on your logic. Allies should become like german naz and invade Russia and start killing? WTH is wrong with you? are you Breivik with an identity crisis? "German is bad, Japan is good, Russia is bad" LOl
Unless you are suggesting Poland, Finland, and all of the other countries that russia conquered were rightfully theirs. I don't see the connection between declaring war, and forcefully evicting them from those areas would have been "invading russia".

Quote:
Look who's talking, someone who likes to vilify the Russians and portray the Western Allies as saints instead. If driving the German invaders out makes you a war criminal, then the Allies are even worse, considering bombing of Dresden or even Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed hundreds of thousands of civilians. ♥♥♥♥♥ about Stalin all you want, but the Soviets has every right to defend their homeland from German aggression.
Another one that desperately needs to actually investigate the numbers they quote. The atomic bombs DID kill ~200 thousand or so, Dresden was 25 thousand. Unless you are going to demand we use German propaganda numbers in place of the city's own investigation in 2010.

I'm not even sure how you can compare bombings, to institutionalized war , and murder of civilians by the red army in areas they conquered. Dresden was probably the least least justifiable of the two instances you gave(The war was literally over at that point), but the number of potential dead from a D-day style invasion of the japanese mainland was going to cost far more lives on both sides then a show of horrific power that ended the war immediately.
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Old 04-17-2012, 07:38 PM   #28
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I was thinking about buying this, but I can tell from the discussion, that it's just another revisionist history, propaganda machine.

No thanks.

I don't need ignorant game developers to lie to me about what happened in WWII. If I wanted to be lied to, I'd take an American History course at USC.

I'll pass.
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:17 AM   #29
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Your telling me your not playing a game because its a fictional story?

What games do you actually play then?
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:37 AM   #30
HellAvenger
 
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[QUOTE=Mikoshi;30348581]Because Russia remained neutral in the invasion of poland right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland


....
QUOTE]


LOL, go READ your own post before MINE. YOU said Russia remain neutral. I merely quoting you and playing your neutrality argument. Main point is USA stayed neutral until forced into war, so they aint BAD by your definition?

Plus, you saying US should have invaded Russia? You do know US supplied Russia with guns, supplies, tank and even fighter planes right? So base on a very SIMPLE minded morality view, wouldnt that means US turning on their Allies? *eep* that is so horrible! BAD BAD man LOl

Lets do an exercise: IF US attacked Russia right after WW2. What will it be? NUCLEAR BOMBS, do you not understand? US did not want to suffer casualty with Japan. you think they want to suffer casulaty with Russia?? So you wanted to have a NUCLEAR WAR? (one sided obviously) They would be worst than German Naz, and that would be really ethnic cleansing.


Back to Japan:
Japan was not much better than Soviet or German naz. Chemical weapon testing on live human subjects, masscres of civilian in their "liberated" countries in Asia. Not to mention the rapes, the forced "comfort women" (basically forced prositute armies made up by conquered Asians). Stealing/kidnapping tall asian children from other countries to indoctrinate into Japan society to improve Japanese population heights (this one is pretty funny). You dont call that barbric? oh, furthermore Japanese cordoned Jewish off too. (In small amount, since not so many in China) Chinese in Shanghai had to smuggle foods for Jewish prisoners to make them survive Japanese occupation.

So some Fun facts about Japan WW2 related:
1) Tall Japanese people, you might be part Chinese or got mutated gene. LOL, dont hate on them.
2) Japan has not apologize for WW2. They insist they were "liberating" other countries. LOL
3) Japan Education Ministry recently put out new textbook that BRIEFLY touched upon WW2 particpation and denied many things. (SO expect a new generation of Japanese that deny WW2, I am not even joking and it has already started. It is like how some German can deny WW2, its baffling)



Although your nuclear bomb comments werent direct at me, but I just want to mention couple things. ONE: the nuclear bombs killed mostly civilian, and they were AIM at civilians. TWO: After the first bomb, second bomb was dropped on CIVILIAN again. They know how devastating the first bomb is already, but down we go another civilian city got wiped out. Pretty much a war crime, USA is a victor. Victors dont go on trial you know?


Main thing here: Nobody is good. ALL countries are motivated by their own interest. Most people like to believe their conutry is good. I really do not think you can name one countries that has always been good. There are always dirt to be digged up.

US did a great thing to liberate people, and AXIS was doing really horrific things. However, it does not justify US nuking TWO cities or your "theortical" exericise of US attacking Russian as an AGGRESSOR (not defender).

Seriously, learn to distinguish Leaders/party in power (ESPECIALLY dicatorship) from their ACTUAL people. People really have little say when they got a proverbial/sometimes literal gun pointing on their back.

Last edited by HellAvenger: 04-18-2012 at 06:17 PM.
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