my view on DLC planes -devs please read!-

CoolingThunder · 04-19-2012, 09:40 AM

Hi,
first of all, I would like to say that I ABSOLUTELY love this game! It has a lot of potential, and face it, we all knew that it wouldn't be the way we all wanted it, but I hope that the devs will make it the way we all like it: AI planes/cars/boats, addon gliders (I'm a glider pilot so please?

)/helicopters AND jets! Maybe also interactive ATC, now I just can land however I want and having to look at the flag, to see from where the wind is coming, isn't handy at all! Now comes my "rant", so buckle up!And to make it clear: I am NOT hating on the game, and you're all doing a great job!
rant: Okay, so I when I saw the mustang being released, I was like: cool, I'll buy it, and when I saw on the store page that it doesn't have a cockpit, I immediately turned away. I mean come on MS, it's a flying game, planes have cockpits, that's how it works! A flying game with no cockpit, in my opinion, doesn't deserve to be called flying game... I totally understand you want to please the casual players, who will most likely use external views, but, guess what? you can change views, so if they don't like the cockpit view, they can change to external view! 2X money for you guys, because not only the casual players will buy, it but also the more serious players. Now I'm afraid a lot of people turned away from buying the Zero and the mustang. I mean, a first-party addon that doesn't have a VC? I don't see the logic in that. Stop releasing half-finished external models, it might take a bit longer to develop, but you WILL please a lot of extra people, and maybe gain some extra followers

. /rant
P.S: sorry for the textwall

Grtz,
CoolingThunder
Belgium

EastCoastGuy · 04-19-2012, 10:20 AM

+1

I think the devs have definitely gotten the message that the lack of cockpits bought them a lot of ire.

RoboRay · 04-19-2012, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EastCoastGuy

+1

I think the devs have definitely gotten the message that the lack of cockpits bought them a lot of ire.

We won't actually know that for sure until they stop releasing them... or at least release two versions of the plane, one with a cockpit and one that's worthless.

Lanter · 04-20-2012, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoboRay

We won't actually know that for sure until they stop releasing them... or at least release two versions of the plane, one with a cockpit and one that's worthless.

That would be totally alright in my book though. Options are always good. If there are folk out there who enjoy flying in 3rd person, them having to shell out half the price for half the plane only seems reasonable to me. To me, it's comparable to choosing not to have the fancy leather seat sheets when buying a new Mercedes. Completely cockpitless planes suck though.

J van E · 04-20-2012, 08:47 AM

On another forum someone posted that the moaning about "all those planes without a VC" is a bit premature. Mind you, I did also moan. Loudly. But when you look at what's available right now, you will four planes with a cockpit and two without one... So even if the upcoming plane does not have a cockpit, there are still more planes that DO have one. So... why moan about it...?

Don't get me wrong, I also don't like planes without a VC: I will NEVER buy one, but nothing is lost yet. I am sure there will be plenty of planes WITH a VC in the future.

CoolingThunder · 04-20-2012, 09:18 AM

I like like Roboray's idea, give people options, at least don't force us to buy something half-baked. J van E, I wasn't really moaning, just giving my view. And, 2 of those 4 already came with the game, and they really couldn't have afforded to release the game with planes without VC, so, that means that 2 out of 4 DLC planes don't have a VC... Just saying I'm hoping that this trend will stop in time, otherwise, I'm afraid this game will die out slowly...

J van E · 04-20-2012, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoolingThunder

J van E, I wasn't really moaning, just giving my view.

I know, sorry, I was talking in general: there IS a lot of moaning about this all and I just happened to post what I did in your topic. Again, it was meant in general and not a direct response to your post.

CoolingThunder · 04-20-2012, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J van E

I know, sorry, I was talking in general: there IS a lot of moaning about this all and I just happened to post what I did in your topic. Again, it was meant in general and not a direct response to your post.

Haha no prob mate, there indeed are a lot of people saying: OMGZ teh planezzz dont haz a VC!11!1!! But that's all they really say. They don't say what they would like to see in the game, or just give their opinion, I have read a lot of these posts consisting of just 1 line... And that is sad, indeed!
Grtz,
CoolingThunder

EastCoastGuy · 04-20-2012, 10:50 AM

I think it comes down to customer expectations.

The game comes with a Stearman (classic open-cockpit cool) and a light amphibian (newfangled cool). For a modest fee you can also buy the Hawaii Pack with RV-6 (faster, nimbler cool) and buy the Maule (extremely useful cool). And you can do instrument flying and ILS landings with them -- also cool.

Then, you can buy a not-as-useful but wowie-zowie mega-cool classic fighter aircraft and absolutely SCREAM around the sky in it.

But then, you learn about the VC... The fastest, most 10-year-old-boy-inside-of-all-of-us desirable plane in the entire game, and unlike every other plane out there, it has no cockpit. Talk about a major letdown.

Sure, there are things I'd like to see in the game (and have mentioned them elsewhere). I have modest hopes for future additions. But more than that, I don't want another cold bucket of water in the face.

RoboRay · 04-20-2012, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EastCoastGuy

Then, you can buy a not-as-useful but wowie-zowie mega-cool classic fighter aircraft and absolutely SCREAM around the sky in it.

But then, you learn about the VC... The fastest, most 10-year-old-boy-inside-of-all-of-us desirable plane in the entire game, and unlike every other plane out there, it has no cockpit. Talk about a major letdown.

Yep. I would love to have a high-performance old warbird to zoom around in. It would be a heck of a lot of fun. But the only way for me to have one is to tell MS that I approve of planes being sold without cockpits by buying one.

That is not going to happen.

n4gix · 04-21-2012, 07:03 AM

1. The decision to market basic exterior model only aircraft was not made in a vacuum, but rather based on their market projections which predicted that the vast majority of Flight users would only fly from a chase view, so why bother with the expense of including a functional virtual cockpit for every aircraft?

2. As a result of this conclusion, several aircraft began development long before the scheduled release of Flight, and were entered into the delivery pipeline.

3. Because of the length of time required to take any aircraft from concept to completion, there is absolutely no chance whatever of any sudden change in direction. Any such decision to alter future content will likely take anywhere from six to twelve months at a minimum*.

4. The only factors to determine a "change in direction" will almost certainly be based on actual sales and usage. That second criteria is likely more important than the first, since any given aircraft might sell well (because there's no competition?), but if the trend is for them to not be used then that could be taken as an indicator that they weren't really all that popular despite high sales.

I offer the above as some possible food for thought...

*Note: this estimate is based on my own sixteen years of experience in flightsim development both as a 3d modeler and a panel/gauge systems programmer.

EastCoastGuy · 04-21-2012, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n4gix

1. The decision to market basic exterior model only aircraft was not made in a vacuum, but rather based on their market projections which predicted that the vast majority of Flight users would only fly from a chase view,

I'd be very curious about the source of this assumption. Serious research within the sim community? (Highly unlikely.) Wishful thinking? Someone pulled it out of ... er, thin air? Based on my own discussions with people in-game, I find it highly questionable.

Quote:

so why bother with the expense of including a functional virtual cockpit for every aircraft?

Well, let's look at the reactions of the two groups:

Casual users -- content.
More serious sim'ers (the ones most likely to stay with the sim long-term ... or not, as the case may be) -- absolutely freaking livid.

Royally p'ing off a major portion of your customer base on a regular basis is no way to ensure long-term loyalty.

Quote:

2. As a result of this conclusion, several aircraft began development long before the scheduled release of Flight, and were entered into the delivery pipeline.

3. Because of the length of time required to take any aircraft from concept to completion, there is absolutely no chance whatever of any sudden change in direction. Any such decision to alter future content will likely take anywhere from six to twelve months at a minimum*.

4. The only factors to determine a "change in direction" will almost certainly be based on actual sales and usage.

I sincerely hope that MS is aiming at the long-term, rather than the all-to-common mistake of focusing only on short-term sales.

Quote:

That second criteria is likely more important than the first, since any given aircraft might sell well (because there's no competition?), but if the trend is for them to not be used then that could be taken as an indicator that they weren't really all that popular despite high sales.

I offer the above as some possible food for thought...

*Note: this estimate is based on my own sixteen years of experience in flightsim development both as a 3d modeler and a panel/gauge systems programmer.

Good food. I hope MS made some really good decisions six to twelve months ago.

CoolingThunder · 04-21-2012, 09:05 AM

You bring up some good points n4gix, but go take a look at the official site. On some of the articles over 200 peoples urged the devs to start implementing VCs, not to mention the amount of people who didn't bother to comment... I think that the research wasn't very thorough... I'm afraid a lot of people will start abandoning the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by n4gix

1. The decision to market basic exterior model only aircraft was not made in a vacuum, but rather based on their market projections which predicted that the vast majority of Flight users would only fly from a chase view, so why bother with the expense of including a functional virtual cockpit for every aircraft?

[/I]

If they didn't bother to start implementing VCs right from the start this will probably mean 1 thing: they want to earn quick, easy money, without doing too much effort. Not to mention that I heard that the planes don't even fly like in real life: the 'Stang can't even reach the speeds a p-51 can reach IRL. There isn't much room for excuses then, is there? I hope they will make their next plane with a VC, otherwise a lot of people WILL abandon the game...

Grtz,
CoolingThunder
Belgium

Dilbflo · 04-21-2012, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EastCoastGuy

I'd be very curious about the source of this assumption. Serious research within the sim community? (Highly unlikely.) Wishful thinking? Someone pulled it out of ... er, thin air? Based on my own discussions with people in-game, I find it highly questionable.

You know, predictions by market projections are hard and exact science, in particular when reported by people external to the organization that eventually developed them

Quote:

Originally Posted by EastCoastGuy

I sincerely hope that MS is aiming at the long-term, rather than the all-to-common mistake of focusing only on short-term sales.

Probably they do, but Mr. Howard has been quite clear. He aims to a target of "tens of millions" players. Probably he thinks that that huge number can be reached only by simplified offers, as the planes without cockpit, not with complex things, as ATC or fully-functional airliners, that could be appreciated by a small minority (aka the simmers and loyal users of decades of MSFS).

D.

aceofspades55 · 04-21-2012, 01:51 PM

Just a little prediction... Most likely any marketing tests were done on the short term, in otherwords get some people put them into a room and give them toys and ask which toy they liked the most.
Problem with that is it does not necessarily address any long term play issues those "toys" may have. The really valuable marketing data is being collected now...who flys/buys what...how often do they fly it and what does the community say about it.
I believe they are finding/gonna find, that although many of those casual player they are hoping to gain will eventually break down into two catagories...1..those that will play awhile,leave and never come back, not because they did not like the game but because something new has come along and being casual players as they are..they will move on. The second group will be casual players who will stay, eventually they will want more than just a 3rd person view flying arcade style.

So back to the prediction...Once all the "pre-decided" stuff is in game we will see progressively fewer of these simplified planes and more full cockpits ect.

I could be wrong or right, time will tell.

04-19-2012, 09:40 AM	#1
CoolingThunder Join Date: Feb 2012 Reputation: 0 Posts: 12	my view on DLC planes -devs please read!- Hi, first of all, I would like to say that I ABSOLUTELY love this game! It has a lot of potential, and face it, we all knew that it wouldn't be the way we all wanted it, but I hope that the devs will make it the way we all like it: AI planes/cars/boats, addon gliders (I'm a glider pilot so please? )/helicopters AND jets! Maybe also interactive ATC, now I just can land however I want and having to look at the flag, to see from where the wind is coming, isn't handy at all! Now comes my "rant", so buckle up!And to make it clear: I am NOT hating on the game, and you're all doing a great job! rant: Okay, so I when I saw the mustang being released, I was like: cool, I'll buy it, and when I saw on the store page that it doesn't have a cockpit, I immediately turned away. I mean come on MS, it's a flying game, planes have cockpits, that's how it works! A flying game with no cockpit, in my opinion, doesn't deserve to be called flying game... I totally understand you want to please the casual players, who will most likely use external views, but, guess what? you can change views, so if they don't like the cockpit view, they can change to external view! 2X money for you guys, because not only the casual players will buy, it but also the more serious players. Now I'm afraid a lot of people turned away from buying the Zero and the mustang. I mean, a first-party addon that doesn't have a VC? I don't see the logic in that. Stop releasing half-finished external models, it might take a bit longer to develop, but you WILL please a lot of extra people, and maybe gain some extra followers . /rant P.S: sorry for the textwall Grtz, CoolingThunder Belgium

04-21-2012, 07:03 AM	#11
n4gix Join Date: Apr 2012 Reputation: 0 Posts: 44	1. The decision to market basic exterior model only aircraft was not made in a vacuum, but rather based on their market projections which predicted that the vast majority of Flight users would only fly from a chase view, so why bother with the expense of including a functional virtual cockpit for every aircraft? 2. As a result of this conclusion, several aircraft began development long before the scheduled release of Flight, and were entered into the delivery pipeline. 3. Because of the length of time required to take any aircraft from concept to completion, there is absolutely no chance whatever of any sudden change in direction. Any such decision to alter future content will likely take anywhere from six to twelve months at a minimum. 4. The only factors to determine a "change in direction" will almost certainly be based on actual sales and usage. That second criteria is likely more important than the first, since any given aircraft might sell well (because there's no competition?), but if the trend is for them to not be used then that could be taken as an indicator that they weren't really all that popular despite high sales. I offer the above as some possible food for thought... Note: this estimate is based on my own sixteen years of experience in flightsim development both as a 3d modeler and a panel/gauge systems programmer. Last edited by n4gix: 04-21-2012 at 07:06 AM.

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04-19-2012, 10:20 AM	#2
EastCoastGuy Join Date: Apr 2012 Reputation: 10 Posts: 265	+1 I think the devs have definitely gotten the message that the lack of cockpits bought them a lot of ire.

04-20-2012, 08:47 AM	#5
J van E Join Date: Apr 2012 Reputation: 5 Posts: 141	On another forum someone posted that the moaning about "all those planes without a VC" is a bit premature. Mind you, I did also moan. Loudly. But when you look at what's available right now, you will four planes with a cockpit and two without one... So even if the upcoming plane does not have a cockpit, there are still more planes that DO have one. So... why moan about it...? Don't get me wrong, I also don't like planes without a VC: I will NEVER buy one, but nothing is lost yet. I am sure there will be plenty of planes WITH a VC in the future.

04-20-2012, 09:18 AM	#6
CoolingThunder Join Date: Feb 2012 Reputation: 0 Posts: 12	I like like Roboray's idea, give people options, at least don't force us to buy something half-baked. J van E, I wasn't really moaning, just giving my view. And, 2 of those 4 already came with the game, and they really couldn't have afforded to release the game with planes without VC, so, that means that 2 out of 4 DLC planes don't have a VC... Just saying I'm hoping that this trend will stop in time, otherwise, I'm afraid this game will die out slowly...

04-20-2012, 10:50 AM	#9
EastCoastGuy Join Date: Apr 2012 Reputation: 10 Posts: 265	I think it comes down to customer expectations. The game comes with a Stearman (classic open-cockpit cool) and a light amphibian (newfangled cool). For a modest fee you can also buy the Hawaii Pack with RV-6 (faster, nimbler cool) and buy the Maule (extremely useful cool). And you can do instrument flying and ILS landings with them -- also cool. Then, you can buy a not-as-useful but wowie-zowie mega-cool classic fighter aircraft and absolutely SCREAM around the sky in it. But then, you learn about the VC... The fastest, most 10-year-old-boy-inside-of-all-of-us desirable plane in the entire game, and unlike every other plane out there, it has no cockpit. Talk about a major letdown. Sure, there are things I'd like to see in the game (and have mentioned them elsewhere). I have modest hopes for future additions. But more than that, I don't want another cold bucket of water in the face.

04-21-2012, 01:51 PM	#15
aceofspades55 Join Date: Sep 2011 Reputation: 3 Posts: 145	Just a little prediction... Most likely any marketing tests were done on the short term, in otherwords get some people put them into a room and give them toys and ask which toy they liked the most. Problem with that is it does not necessarily address any long term play issues those "toys" may have. The really valuable marketing data is being collected now...who flys/buys what...how often do they fly it and what does the community say about it. I believe they are finding/gonna find, that although many of those casual player they are hoping to gain will eventually break down into two catagories...1..those that will play awhile,leave and never come back, not because they did not like the game but because something new has come along and being casual players as they are..they will move on. The second group will be casual players who will stay, eventually they will want more than just a 3rd person view flying arcade style. So back to the prediction...Once all the "pre-decided" stuff is in game we will see progressively fewer of these simplified planes and more full cockpits ect. I could be wrong or right, time will tell.