Engy seems to be falling by the wayside

[Akisohida]

Yeah, this is how I feel and I main Engy. Let's count the effortless ways to kill an SG.

Soldier:

Direct Hit: Two of these and your SG is down. ONE does more damage than a wrench swing repairs, so 3 if an Engy is actively repairing.
However, the small splash means the Engy will live.

Demoman:

Loch n Load: 2 pipes, even when actively repairing, will break the SG. And with the SGs slow lock-on, a person can step out, fire, and hide.
Or fire in an arc from a distaince/over a wall.
And the splash means Engy dies too.
And if the Engy chases the demoman, he can easily winbomb with 1 or 2 stickies, or just hit with 1 Loch. Now no Engy to repair the SG.

Sticky launcher: 3 means SG is dead. Using the Scottish means you can shoot out 4 in about 2 seconds and then back up and det. (I do this all the time. Engies can't kill me before I det, nor break enough stickies)

Pyro:

Any flamethrower: I have seen Pyros KITE SENTRY GUNS. Most use the Brokeburner, which means any engy nearby dies in about one second. Faster if they ran in with Phlog activated.
(Yeah, I am of the opine that only Scouts should be fast enough to kite SGs, but I have seen Medics, Pyros, and Snipers melee a level 3 to death via kiting after someone killed the Engy.)

Scout:

FAN: Thanks to Corner Humping (where a player leans out enough to fire, and the SG does not shoot back, even if they are 4 feet away on even ground), the FAN can do as much in one clip as a Direct Hit. This also has use for killing an Engy repairing his SG or upgrading it. One clip, which takes half a second to fire, will kill the engy from close to medium distaince. This also applies to kiting, but Scouts should be able to kite SGs.

Any Pistol: Once again, because of Corner Humping, a full scout pistol clip does about 1/2 of a level 3's health.

Spy:

Yes, this class is ment to take down SGs, but I am listing very easy ways to render Engies useless, and the spy has one that takes very little skill.

YER: Walk up behind an Engy with the YER and your backstab will not warrent a skillful stab-n-sap. Just take your time sapping everything.

Medic:

Anyone ubered.

Heavy:

Any minigun. I have seen heavies, knowing where an SG is, leap out while spun up and actually out-damage the SG, ALONE. Throw in a Medic and he will do more damage to the SG than an Engy can heal before the SG overcomes the Medics healing.

That leaves 2 classes that cannot easily, and pretty much single-handedly, take down an SG: Sniper and Engy.

[Shradow]

I wouldn't leave out Snipers. In certain situations they can headshot the Engy then snipe away at the Sentry until it's destroyed.

And if you call the Backburner the Brokeburner because you think it's OP, that is just adorable.

[Dax77]

Shouldn't sentries be relatively easy to take out though? Otherwise it requires no planning or skill on the engineer's part.

[Akisohida]

Originally Posted by Shradow

And if you call the Backburner the Brokeburner because you think it's OP, that is just adorable.

I call it such not because it is OP per se, just broken. it does more damage than any other Flamethrower normally PLUS 100% crits from behind PLUS normal chance for crits PLUS compression blast.
And since you are killing people, youa re piscking up ammo, so the C.Blast costing more is not too much of a downside.

Yeah, that's balanced.

Originally Posted by Dax77

Shouldn't sentries be relatively easy to take out though? Otherwise it requires no planning or skill on the engineer's part.

Wrong. Ten levels of Wrong. SGs should be hard to kill because the Engy has nothing else going for him. His main is a secondary weapon. His secondary is a secondary weapon. He has low HP and average movement.

And Engy without his SG is meat. If the SG is easy to take down, what is the point of it?

[Shradow]

The BB has no random crits, actually. The back crits are horribly unreliable at times due to only 90 degrees and finicky flame particles. 50 ammo airblasts are very harsh, whether you're killing or not.

It's a nice sidegrade to the stock that could stand to be better. In other words, you're just a little ball of butthurt.

[Dax77]

Originally Posted by Akisohida

Wrong. Ten levels of Wrong. SGs should be hard to kill because the Engy has nothing else going for him. His main is a secondary weapon. His secondary is a secondary weapon. He has low HP and average movement.

And Engy without his SG is meat. If the SG is easy to take down, what is the point of it?

It already is fairly hard to take down though. It's within reason at this point. Bear in mind you have to worry about not only the sentry's firepower, but the teamates surrounding it as well.

Buff the sentry more, and the only threat you have to worry about is a spy/uber, as there's very little chance anything else will be able to take it down. All the engi would have to do is sit there and tank it 24/7 without a care in the world. This is the issue everyone has with the wrangler at the moment: the sentry is to strong to kill.

Proper sentry placement will go a long ways: you shouldn't be able to just plop it down anywhere and not worry about it sustaining damage. Combine that with buffed hp.
I think that's what you're neglecting here, as you're worried about pyros and scouts edging your sentry, which is pretty much impossible if you place it away from a corner.

[Rynjin]

Originally Posted by Akisohida

Yeah, this is how I feel and I main Engy. Let's count the effortless ways to kill an SG.

Soldier:

Direct Hit: Two of these and your SG is down. ONE does more damage than a wrench swing repairs, so 3 if an Engy is actively repairing.
However, the small splash means the Engy will live.

And the Solly gimps himself versus everything else. Fair trade.

Originally Posted by Akisohida

Demoman:

Loch n Load: 2 pipes, even when actively repairing, will break the SG. And with the SGs slow lock-on, a person can step out, fire, and hide.
Or fire in an arc from a distaince/over a wall.
And the splash means Engy dies too.
And if the Engy chases the demoman, he can easily winbomb with 1 or 2 stickies, or just hit with 1 Loch. Now no Engy to repair the SG.

Sticky launcher: 3 means SG is dead. Using the Scottish means you can shoot out 4 in about 2 seconds and then back up and det. (I do this all the time. Engies can't kill me before I det, nor break enough stickies)

Demoman is your counter. Hence why even his less effective weapon (The Loch n Load) is easily able to kill a Sentry.

Originally Posted by Akisohida

Pyro:

Any flamethrower: I have seen Pyros KITE SENTRY GUNS. Most use the Brokeburner, which means any engy nearby dies in about one second. Faster if they ran in with Phlog activated.
(Yeah, I am of the opine that only Scouts should be fast enough to kite SGs, but I have seen Medics, Pyros, and Snipers melee a level 3 to death via kiting after someone killed the Engy.)

First off, if you think the Backburner's broken you're ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

Also, WHY is a Pyro able to even get in range of your Sentry to begin with? Are you building it directly next to an easily edgeable corner with it facing a wall or something?

Originally Posted by Akisohida

Scout:

FAN: Thanks to Corner Humping (where a player leans out enough to fire, and the SG does not shoot back, even if they are 4 feet away on even ground), the FAN can do as much in one clip as a Direct Hit. This also has use for killing an Engy repairing his SG or upgrading it. One clip, which takes half a second to fire, will kill the engy from close to medium distaince. This also applies to kiting, but Scouts should be able to kite SGs.

Any Pistol: Once again, because of Corner Humping, a full scout pistol clip does about 1/2 of a level 3's health.

Yeah, you're building your Sentry in absolutely idiotic places if FaN Scouts are killing it that easily.

And it takes almost all of a Scout's pistol ammo to kill a Sentry.

Protip: If you hit the Sentry with your Wrench, it gets repaired. You can also upgrade your Sentry to a Level 2, or even 3 version that's much more powerful.

Originally Posted by Akisohida

Spy:

Yes, this class is ment to take down SGs, but I am listing very easy ways to render Engies useless, and the spy has one that takes very little skill.

YER: Walk up behind an Engy with the YER and your backstab will not warrent a skillful stab-n-sap. Just take your time sapping everything.

And he gimps himself completely by using YER most of the time. You know he has to stab AT LEAST one other person before he can go after you, right?

Or do you turtle with a Sentry in front and sandwhich yourself between it and a Dispenser?

Bad move.

Originally Posted by Akisohida

Medic:

Anyone ubered.

Waaaaaaaah.

Originally Posted by Akisohida

Heavy:

Any minigun. I have seen heavies, knowing where an SG is, leap out while spun up and actually out-damage the SG, ALONE. Throw in a Medic and he will do more damage to the SG than an Engy can heal before the SG overcomes the Medics healing.

Again, you shouldn't be building in places that someone can just hop around a corner and start firing at it point blank. It's stupid Sentry placement.

Originally Posted by Akisohida

That leaves 2 classes that cannot easily, and pretty much single-handedly, take down an SG: Sniper and Engy.

Hell, as bad as your Sentry placement is, an Engie can edge it with the Pistol (like the Scout, but with 20 times as much ammo) and the Sniper can get two full charge shots on it pretty easily, since you apparently don't know how to repair.

[Akisohida]

Originally Posted by Shradow

The BB has no random crits, actually. The back crits are horribly unreliable at times due to only 90 degrees and finicky flame particles. 50 ammo airblasts are harsh, whether you're killing or not.

It's a nice sidegrade to the stock that could stand to be better. In other words, you're just a little ball of butthurt.

Whoo! The butthurt comment on page one! Ladies and mentlegen, we have a dip♥♥♥♥!

Oh, and it does random crit, be it a bug or not. I charged a pyro and he crit me while running backwards.
Or the time I had my back in a corner (spy was around) and a BBurner pyro ran in and crit me.
Or the time I turned a corner and got critted by a BBurner who was waiting for the first person he saw? No back visible there, either!

So go scurry away, you little ball of moron.
You realize 'butthurt' and 'learn2(etc)' mean the same thing? They mean 'I am too stupid to come up with an actual argument, so I will just instult you to look '

[Akisohida]

Originally Posted by Rynjin

And the Solly gimps himself versus everything else. Fair trade.



Demoman is your counter. Hence why even his less effective weapon (The Loch n Load) is easily able to kill a Sentry.



First off, if you think the Backburner's broken you're ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

Also, WHY is a Pyro able to even get in range of your Sentry to begin with? Are you building it directly next to an easily edgeable corner with it facing a wall or something?



Yeah, you're building your Sentry in absolutely idiotic places if FaN Scouts are killing it that easily.

And it takes almost all of a Scout's pistol ammo to kill a Sentry.

Protip: If you hit the Sentry with your Wrench, it gets repaired. You can also upgrade your Sentry to a Level 2, or even 3 version that's much more powerful.



And he gimps himself completely by using YER most of the time. You know he has to stab AT LEAST one other person before he can go after you, right?

Or do you turtle with a Sentry in front and sandwhich yourself between it and a Dispenser?

Bad move.



Waaaaaaaah.



Again, you shouldn't be building in places that someone can just hop around a corner and start firing at it point blank. It's stupid Sentry placement.



Hell, as bad as your Sentry placement is, an Engie can edge it with the Pistol (like the Scout, but with 20 times as much ammo) and the Sniper can get two full charge shots on it pretty easily, since you apparently don't know how to repair.

So I should not build it near walls or corners..Nope! I will build it in a wide open field, where no one can sneak up on it..instead, they can shoot it from half a mile away.

Oh, and I took repairing into account, but apparently you did not read that.

[Rynjin]

Originally Posted by Akisohida

So I should not build it near walls or corners..Nope! I will build it in a wide open field, where no one can sneak up on it..instead, they can shoot it from half a mile away.

Hey, here's a novel idea!

Build the Sentry in places that OVERLOOK a wide open field, but are covered on two or three sides by walls. There are LOTS of these places.

Originally Posted by Akisohida

Oh, and I took repairing into account, but apparently you did not read that.

Apparently not, since FaN Scouts with Pistols and Pyros are killing you and your Sentry.

[Akisohida]

Originally Posted by Rynjin

Hey, here's a novel idea!

Build the Sentry in places that OVERLOOK a wide open field, but are covered on two or three sides by walls. There are LOTS of these places.



Apparently not, since FaN Scouts with Pistols and Pyros are killing you and your Sentry.

FAN scouts; never, but the sheer amount of damage they do in half a second shows me that a better Scout COULD do so.

Pyros..A few times. Usually they charge past my SG and kill me before I can take 3 steps, then my SG gets taken down by someone else after it kills said Pyro...Provided Pyro does not then just circle-jerk around my SG

The biggest problem with Engy is he is one of the Ultimate Teamwork Classes. He SUCKS alone...But no one ever wants to help him. They don't want the SG stealing kills, so they ignore an Engy reporting spies and sollies and pyros..and then jarate and whine when the SG is taken down and the team loses.

[Shradow]

Originally Posted by Akisohida

Whoo! The butthurt comment on page one! Ladies and mentlegen, we have a dip♥♥♥♥!

Oh, and it does random crit, be it a bug or not. I charged a pyro and he crit me while running backwards.
Or the time I had my back in a corner (spy was around) and a BBurner pyro ran in and crit me.
Or the time I turned a corner and got critted by a BBurner who was waiting for the first person he saw? No back visible there, either!

So go scurry away, you little ball of moron.
You realize 'butthurt' and 'learn2(etc)' mean the same thing? They mean 'I am too stupid to come up with an actual argument, so I will just instult you to look '

You say that after insulting me multiple times (one of which was grammatically incorrect) without a valid argument. Meanwhile mine used something called logic; you may have heard of it.

And it literally can't. It is not a bug, it is an unlisted downside. Those crits were either from capping intel, a Kritzkrieg, or lag compensation.

The fact you think the Engineer sucks on his own combined with what Rynjin has pointed out shows how much you know (or in this case don't know) how to use him.

[Dax77]

Originally Posted by Akisohida

FAN scouts; never, but the sheer amount of damage they do in half a second shows me that a better Scout COULD do so.

Pyros..A few times. Usually they charge past my SG and kill me before I can take 3 steps, then my SG gets taken down by someone else after it kills said Pyro...Provided Pyro does not then just circle-jerk around my SG

The biggest problem with Engy is he is one of the Ultimate Teamwork Classes. He SUCKS alone...But no one ever wants to help him. They don't want the SG stealing kills, so they ignore an Engy reporting spies and sollies and pyros..and then jarate and whine when the SG is taken down and the team loses.

How are pyros getting past your sentry though? Bad placement.

A FaN scout will never take out a sentry without edging. The sentry will kill him first.

I agree with your third point, however this isn't as much of a balance issue as a community one, since many other classes rely on teamates as well (See spy, medic, sniper, heavy, pyro).

[Rynjin]

Originally Posted by Akisohida

FAN scouts; never, but the sheer amount of damage they do in half a second shows me that a better Scout COULD do so.

Riiiiiiight...

Originally Posted by Akisohida

FAN: Thanks to Corner Humping (where a player leans out enough to fire, and the SG does not shoot back, even if they are 4 feet away on even ground), the FAN can do as much in one clip as a Direct Hit. This also has use for killing an Engy repairing his SG or upgrading it. One clip, which takes half a second to fire, will kill the engy from close to medium distaince. This also applies to kiting, but Scouts should be able to kite SGs.

Originally Posted by Akisohida

Pyros..A few times. Usually they charge past my SG and kill me before I can take 3 steps, then my SG gets taken down by someone else after it kills said Pyro...Provided Pyro does not then just circle-jerk around my SG

And if your Sentry was in any half decent spot the Pyro would be dead before he reached the Sentry. Where the hell do you PLAY? 24/7 32 man Lotus clan 2fort servers?

Originally Posted by Akisohida

The biggest problem with Engy is he is one of the Ultimate Teamwork Classes. He SUCKS alone...But no one ever wants to help him. They don't want the SG stealing kills, so they ignore an Engy reporting spies and sollies and pyros..and then jarate and whine when the SG is taken down and the team loses.

Use the Wrangler.

Build your Sentry in a decent spot.

Win.

[KajiVena]

Engineer is not the end-game Defense class. His Sentry is the last line of Defense and dependant on placement and how well his team can help defend it. If left unguarded, the Sentry goes down with ease, but... the second people start defending it is the time that the 128 DPS (plus rockets) and 216 HP becomes a royal pain in the ♥♥♥ and helps to fortify the point/intel/cart.

Sentries respond to coordination. In horrible pubs, this won't happen. In mediocre pubs, you can start to see just how effective it truly is. In higher level matches, Sentries start to require Ubers.

Engineer is a team player, not a solo expert.