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Old 04-22-2012, 08:03 PM   #1
Vedi
 
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Major issue: interpolate viewpoint recoil kickback

In CS:GO, the viewpoint recoil kickback is not interpolated. This means that on frames between ticks, you are aiming based on inaccurate information of your real direction of view. This makes recoil feel random and choppy. I feel that in the current state of CS:GO beta, they have simply toned down the viewpoint recoil to make aiming consistent. I think this is unacceptable; recoil control is one of the iconic aspects of CS.

The problem is fixed by interpolating viewpoint recoil kickback. Interestingly, it is already done in left 4 dead 2. If you doubt the effect of interpolating viewpoint properly, try l4d2. If it feels smoother than CS:S and CS:GO, the reason is probably the properly interpolated viewpoint.

I try to show the issue clearly in this youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_fBgUD621Y

Edit:
TLDR: The screen shake effects in CS:GO are choppy instead of smooth. This is demonstrated in the video I linked. If you doubt the importance, watch the end of the video.

Transcript from beginning of video:
Recoil in CS games consists of two separate effects. First, the bullets don't hit the center of the crosshair but are randomly distributed over a larger area. For some weapons, such as the ak47, this area is above the crosshair. The second effect is the viewpoint kickback. This effect punches the direction of the screen upwards after each shot and makes the recoil feel a lot more realistic. It also makes recoil control a rewarding and addictive skill. Sadly, the viewpoint kickback effect is not as smooth as it could be in CS:Source and in CS:Global offensive. This makes the recoil feel random, inaccurate, jittery or choppy.

On frames between ticks, you are aiming based on inaccurate information of your true direction of view. If you want to quantify this, the inaccuracy is the same size as 2-5 counts on 400dpi mouse and sens 3.5.

Last edited by Vedi: 04-23-2012 at 03:15 AM.
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Old 04-22-2012, 08:32 PM   #2
nabokovfan87
 
 
 
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I think you are confusing kickback in cs:s with crappy whatever is going on in go and you just like l4d2.

It would probably be better if you took the same gun in all 3 game and just bursted against a wall, then did full, and then single, don't slow them down.

Last edited by nabokovfan87: 04-22-2012 at 08:35 PM.
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Old 04-22-2012, 08:32 PM   #3
Glover
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BinaryCode64 View Post
Is the interpolate viewpoint recoil kickback = screenshake? Because I have no idea what your talking about. (I feel stupid not figuring out what you mean.)
I'm gonna have to agree with you here. By the way Vedi could you turn up your microphone output, i had to put my headset on to hear you properly.

Last edited by Glover: 04-22-2012 at 08:36 PM.
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Old 04-22-2012, 10:24 PM   #4
st4n13y415c
 
 
 
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I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.
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Old 04-22-2012, 10:27 PM   #5
OOgle
 
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I feel so bad for you Vedi. You put a ton of work into your demonstration and no one understands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpolation

He's basically saying that your viewpoint shifts from one degree to another without enough transitions inbetween. Without those transitional frames, you are being presented with false information: "choppyness"

It is smoothing, but not be confused with the smoothing we had before screenshake was added. What he's advocating is entirely visual, and improves the accuracy of the feedback.
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Old 04-22-2012, 10:35 PM   #6
Meczor
 
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Originally Posted by OOgle View Post
I feel so bad for you Vedi. You put a ton of work into your demonstration and no one understands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpolation

He's basically saying that your viewpoint shifts from one degree to another without enough transitions inbetween. Without those transitional frames, you are being presented with false information: "choppyness"

It is smoothing, but not be confused with the smoothing we had before screenshake was added. What he's advocating is entirely visual, and improves the accuracy of the feedback.
thanks for explaining! :>
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Old 04-22-2012, 10:37 PM   #7
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Yea i still dont quite understand what he means all the way.
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Old 04-23-2012, 12:24 AM   #8
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I don't think this threads gana go anywhere unless someone explains better.
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Old 04-23-2012, 12:49 AM   #9
zeibi
 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LunTe2wrJuE

This video should explain what he means, and I think that this fix should be implemented because it makes game much more enjoyable.
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Old 04-23-2012, 01:56 AM   #10
venom :: zid
 
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I've known about this for a long time but I just do not see it as any kind of real issue. The thing people need to realize is these things are happening so fast you as a person cannot actually perceive it nor would it really change anything. Your brain functions like a time machine so to speak sitting 250ms in the past, you react accordingly to what has already taken place and to you it seems to be in real time when it's actually not. All adding interpolation to the "viewpunch" would accomplish is smoothing out what has already happened and the unperceivable.

Why is this actually a problem is basically what I am asking? What would this accomplish in your eyes?

Last edited by venom :: zid: 04-23-2012 at 02:02 AM.
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Old 04-23-2012, 02:05 AM   #11
OOgle
 
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Originally Posted by venom :: zid View Post
All adding interpolation to the "viewpunch" would accomplish is smoothing out what has already taken place and the unperceivable.
Interpolation by definition is prediction, and its absence is perceivable at low tick rates.

Arguments for and against interpolating view shake hold the same water as interpolating movement. Why people insist on playing devil's advocate against something that clearly benefits all parties, I'll never understand.
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Old 04-23-2012, 02:10 AM   #12
venom :: zid
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OOgle View Post
Arguments for and against interpolating view shake hold the same water as interpolating movement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OOgle View Post
Why people insist on playing devil's advocate against something that clearly benefits all parties, I'll never understand.
You do realize these two things completely contradict each other right? Arguments from either side are valid but arguing against it is somehow wrong? Makes sense...

I'm sorry but I am not a fan of interpolation on any level, especially movement. I would rather have a clear and real indication as to what is actually happening with people and the game than artificial rendering filling the gaps.
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Old 04-23-2012, 02:20 AM   #13
OOgle
 
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Originally Posted by venom :: zid View Post
You do realize these two things completely contradict each other right? Arguments from either side are valid but arguing against it is somehow wrong? Makes sense...
No, I said they both hold the same water; that could be a lot or none at all. I don't think it's rational to advocate/condemn one without the other.

Quote:
I'm sorry but I am not a fan of interpolation on any level, especially movement. I would rather have a clear and real indication as to what is actually happening with people and the game than artificial rendering filling the gaps.
But you don't have a clear or real indication of what is happening without interpolation - like you said, you are witnessing the past. Interpolation predicts the future to increase the accuracy of your client.
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Old 04-23-2012, 02:31 AM   #14
venom :: zid
 
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Originally Posted by OOgle View Post
No, I said they both hold the same water; that could be a lot or none at all. I don't think it's rational to advocate/condemn one without the other.

But you don't have a clear or real indication of what is happening without interpolation - like you said, you are witnessing the past. Interpolation predicts the future to increase the accuracy of your client.
The problem though is it makes mistakes or predicts far too ahead depending on latency. In GO currently some of these predictions or mistakes are REALLY bad, I'm talking like 1-1.5 second predictions. You will literally see the player run out from around corner get about 3 feet then vanish, after that they actually come around the corner and you are already aware of their presence because of this.

I would rather things be choppy and an actual representation of what is taking place than calculations which are not always correct filling the gaps. That is why the Source engine netcode was always an issue, they focused far too much on trying to smooth everything out and the gameplay suffered as a result which is ironic because it was created to give a better gameplay experience regardless of latency.
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Old 04-23-2012, 02:31 AM   #15
Vedi
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by venom :: zid View Post
I've known about this for a long time but I just do not see it as any kind of real issue. The thing people need to realize is these things are happening so fast you as a person cannot actually perceive it nor would it really change anything. Your brain functions like a time machine so to speak sitting 250ms in the past, you react accordingly to what has already taken place and to you it seems to be in real time when it's actually not. All adding interpolation to the "viewpunch" would accomplish is smoothing out what has already happened and the unperceivable.

Why is this actually a problem is basically what I am asking? What would this accomplish in your eyes?
Yea I discovered this issue back in October 2010. The problem is exactly that some things are interpolated, while others are not. If movement wasn't interpolated, and fps was capped at 100fps, then everything would be fine. But in the current form, we see our movement as smooth, and mousemovement as smooth, but recoil kickback is choppy. This is the worst option.

It seems extremely hard to convince people this is important.
1) Try comparing how smooth l4d2 is to CS:S.
2) Watch the end of my video, it shows 240fps recording of my monitor while I'm playing the different games. Even at a crappy resolution its clear that l4d2 looks extremely smooth.
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