Why you should play Torchlight II (and comparison with Diablo III)

[spyrochaete]

Originally Posted by Antonin Artaud

6 weeks in, the flaws of D3 will start to be fairly obvious, especially in terms of replayability and the way the RMAH negatively affects some aspects of the multiplayer experience.

You really think so? I figure replayability will be enhanced by the random maps and the fact that you don't see all quests on every playthrough. Multiplayer and RMAH are completely optional so they're only an issue if you opt to use them.

Both D3 and T2 will be great. The only reason I bought D3 is because it was the first to be offered for sale.

[Elcs]

They are both shaping up to be good games in the same genre and should be judged on their own merits.

I, for one, have pre-ordered both and intend to enjoy both.

[Neriot]

Originally Posted by spyrochaete

You really think so? I figure replayability will be enhanced by the random maps and the fact that you don't see all quests on every playthrough. Multiplayer and RMAH are completely optional so they're only an issue if you opt to use them.

Both D3 and T2 will be great. The only reason I bought D3 is because it was the first to be offered for sale.

Since multiplayer is mandatory to play the game at all, I don't understand how it's optional.

Replayability is severely limited by the fact that no two characters of the same class differ in any way other than the items they're wearing.

D3 and TL2 will be great and have their own merits, but D3 is an empty husk compared to its predecessors.

[spyrochaete]

Originally Posted by Neriot

Since multiplayer is mandatory to play the game at all, I don't understand how it's optional.

Online is mandatory but you can play the whole game solo. You can lock out other players, you can restrict your game to friends only, you can open your game to the public, or you can freely join and leave any public game in progress. I definitely recognize how much it sucks to have to connect online to play solo, though.

Replayability is severely limited by the fact that no two characters of the same class differ in any way other than the items they're wearing.

Definitely untrue. You can spec your characters in several different ways and respecs are cheap and simple so you don't have to worry about permanently breaking your character as in the previous games. All characters of one class have the opportunity to spec identically but I expect everyone will make different choices based on their play style. As your level increases the number of available options grows and toons will diverge more dramatically, whereas low level toons have few choices and are pretty much identical. I think only hardcore mode players will care about cookie cutter min\maxing to keep themselves alive in a crisis.

D3 and TL2 will be great and have their own merits, but D3 is an empty husk compared to its predecessors.

Couldn't disagree more. D3 is streamlined but not empty. Not in my opinion anyway. My wife disagrees with me on this somewhat so I recognize that this is a matter of opinion, but I certainly don't miss spending attribute points or manually increasing damage 1-4 points on a skill I use once every 5 minutes. I argue that compared to its predecessors D3 is more focused on gameplay and less on spreadsheets.

[Antonin Artaud]

Originally Posted by spyrochaete

You really think so?

The team is loaded with talent, but they're really weak in terms of level randomness. I don't think they really understand it, their leads don't have experience on a single other title with it, and they don't prioritize it.

I also think that the RMAH damages the essence of what makes a game a very-long-replayable one in terms of the corrosive element of 'pay to win'.

Also, the subtle, atmospheric stuff has a real danger in terms of getting same-y throughout the game.

Add it all up, and I think the (not necessarily literally) hardcore types will hit a wall in a couple of weeks, when they get to nightmare etc and realize that the RMAH is de rigeur and the intense-but-not-psychotic fans will hit a wall after a month, or after finishing normal with a few toons. Much like preparation H, a twenty buck tube of TL2 will ease the butthurt.

All just my speculative opinion, of course.

[Neriot]

Originally Posted by spyrochaete

Definitely untrue. You can spec your characters in several different ways and respecs are cheap and simple so you don't have to worry about permanently breaking your character as in the previous games. All characters of one class have the opportunity to spec identically but I expect everyone will make different choices based on their play style. As your level increases the number of available options grows and toons will diverge more dramatically, whereas low level toons have few choices and are pretty much identical. I think only hardcore mode players will care about cookie cutter min\maxing to keep themselves alive in a crisis.

Being able to respecialise on a whim without recreating a character means that you'll never have to create a class twice. That's a lot of replayability lost right there.

It carries both pros and cons, for me personally and other people out there, it's definitely a con.
You'll be able to experiment without consequence. This also means losing replay value since you'll never make the same class twice.

[kisado87]

Originally Posted by spyrochaete

Definitely untrue. You can spec your characters in several different ways and respecs are cheap and simple so you don't have to worry about permanently breaking your character as in the previous games. All characters of one class have the opportunity to spec identically but I expect everyone will make different choices based on their play style. As your level increases the number of available options grows and toons will diverge more dramatically, whereas low level toons have few choices and are pretty much identical. I think only hardcore mode players will care about cookie cutter min\maxing to keep themselves alive in a crisis.

But then any and all consequence to speccing are gone. The only critical choice you make is what class to play, aside from items. It's not giving your more choice, the choices were already there with the skills - they've just eliminated weaknesses. Any choice you make is a safe one. I don't like that. And while you may think as the game progresses, people will choose their separate playstyles, you and I both know this is untrue. There will always be that feel of "Holy ♥♥♥♥. What is that guy using? I'm going to use that since it's just blatantly better." You got a taste of that in the beta, I really doubt that will ever go away.

Originally Posted by spyrochaete

Couldn't disagree more. D3 is streamlined but not empty. Not in my opinion anyway. My wife disagrees with me on this somewhat so I recognize that this is a matter of opinion, but I certainly don't miss spending attribute points or manually increasing damage 1-4 points on a skill I use once every 5 minutes. I argue that compared to its predecessors D3 is more focused on gameplay and less on spreadsheets.

True. But this is also giving up experimentation -> taking options away from the player. When was it ever a good thing to take away options?

It just doesn't feel like Diablo anymore.

Torchlight 2 ftw.

[Neriot]

Originally Posted by kisado87

True. But this is also giving up experimentation -> taking options away from the player. When was it ever a good thing to take away options?

There used to be so many valid builds (both skill and stat points) available to a player.

I could make a sorceress. Do I go fire, lightning or cold?
If I go with any of these, do I go for extreme faster cast rate builds around skills without cooldowns or go heavier on the elemental damage on a build based around skills on cooldowns? Do I go intend to go heavy on the energy (potentially with Energy Shield), vitality or dexterity for blocking? How much strength do I want to invest for certain pieces of equipment?

These choices are all gone. We're given blank slates without any characteristics.

I'm not saying this is necessarily wrong, but it's a betrayal to the previous games and not everyone agrees with these design ideas.

I'm not against respecialisations that the player has to work for, but being able to do it at any given time, even in combat, is taking things too far. All I'm asking for is some consequences, some risk and reward.

[Antonin Artaud]

Originally Posted by Neriot

but it's a betrayal to the previous games

I wouldn't use the word "betrayal", but maybe there's a reason only one out 60 devs from D2's ship date still works there, along with 0/20 devs from the original diablo for at least 5 years now.

[Neriot]

Originally Posted by Antonin Artaud

I wouldn't use the word "betrayal", but maybe there's a reason only one out 60 devs from D2's ship date still works there, along with 0/20 devs from the original diablo for at least 5 years now.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

By June 2003 two new games were in production. However on June 30, 2003, several key employees left Blizzard North to form the new companies Flagship Studios (8 moved here including Max Schaefer, Erich Schaefer, David Brevik and Bill Roper) and Castaway Entertainment (9 moved here).[citation needed] The Blizzard North exodus continued on with around 30 employees leaving the company in total.

The resignations were partly due to a conflict with Blizzard Entertainment's owner, Vivendi, and partly due to employees wishing to start something new. Back at Blizzard North, however, they would have a common effect; of the two unannounced games that were in production at the time, one was now forced to be canceled. Blizzard Entertainment has since said the canceled game was a "Blizzard North kind of game.

I'm not entirely sure what you are insinuating.

[edit] I'm in no way trying to champion Torchlight 2 over Diablo 3, nor am I trying to put Diablo 3 down. Let's face facts though, Diablo 3 is a dumbed down shadow of its former self that caters to those with either short attention spans or little free time.

Is this wrong from a design or financial perspective? Absolutely not, but I don't have to agree with it.

[spyrochaete]

Originally Posted by Antonin Artaud

I also think that the RMAH damages the essence of what makes a game a very-long-replayable one in terms of the corrosive element of 'pay to win'.

I think this risk is definitely there, but it was there in the previous games as well; just not through official channels. RMAH is a means to rid the world of eBay scams by keeping the process under Blizzard's radar. In Diablo 1 and 2 people would create weapons with offline hack tools and sell them on eBay for $50. In Diablo 3 Blizzard controls single player as well as the auction house so you can't generate items out of thin air.

Don't forget that hacks and cheating were by far the biggest problems in Diablo 1 and 2. I think it's a shame you can't mod or cheat in Diablo 3 single player if you want to, but I guess that's a feature that Torchlight will happily provide.

Regarding pay to win, the beauty of Diablo (and Torchlight) is that you can't ever win! The only thing you ever win is a new piece of gear. If you'd rather pay money and skip the game then that's your choice, but I expect 99% of players will never opt for this.

Originally Posted by Neriot

Being able to respecialise on a whim without recreating a character means that you'll never have to create a class twice. That's a lot of replayability lost right there.

It carries both pros and cons, for me personally and other people out there, it's definitely a con.
You'll be able to experiment without consequence. This also means losing replay value since you'll never make the same class twice.

This is absolutely true, but you're still welcome to roll the same class multiple times for the experience of leveling using a different style. The only difference is that this is optional as opposed to mandatory. If you enjoy leveling alts you can still do it, but if not then you can still reap the rewards without grinding a brand new toon for hours.

Originally Posted by kisado87

But then any and all consequence to speccing are gone. The only critical choice you make is what class to play, aside from items. It's not giving your more choice, the choices were already there with the skills - they've just eliminated weaknesses. Any choice you make is a safe one. I don't like that.

That's where our opinions will differ then, I guess. This was my wife's argument as well and she feels very strongly about this. She sees it as a limitation but I see it as an opportunity. Neither of us is correct - it's just a matter of opinion. I just don't find it fun to invest dozens of hours into a character that irreparably plateaus because I took a chance on skills that sounded fun but ended up being underpowered. For example, I put maybe 50 hours into a beast master toon in Titan Quest that is now completely broken because my pets get oneshotted by half the enemies I meet in hard mode.

Besides, just because all choices are safe, doesn't mean all choices are equally good. Between all the exponential possibilities there will be some combinations that work better than others, always or situationally. I also find it cool that I'll be able to change my spec based on the strengths of who I'm teaming up with at the moment - if I have a tank I can spec as a glass cannon, and if I'm grouped with all ranged DPS I can put more points into crowd control. I looooooved Guild Wars for exactly this reason because you can dramatically respec on a whim.

[Neriot]

Originally Posted by spyrochaete

This is absolutely true, but you're still welcome to roll the same class multiple times for the experience of leveling using a different style. The only difference is that this is optional as opposed to mandatory. If you enjoy leveling alts you can still do it, but if not then you can still reap the rewards without grinding a brand new toon for hours.

While this is true, there is no incentive or need for it. A different take on your class is but a few clicks away.

I do understand, I just don't agree.

[edit] 12 years after first purchasing Diablo 2, I still play the game, if only to experiment with class builds. This is obviously far outside the scope of Blizzards monetary interests, but it's something that appeals to me.

Does this all make me a selfish son of a ♥♥♥♥♥? Of course, everyone is.

[Antonin Artaud]

Originally Posted by spyrochaete

RMAH is a means to rid the world of eBay scams by keeping the process under Blizzard's radar.

It's also a means for Blizzard to self-destruct a brand built over two decades with a reputation for zealously guarding the integrity of the game space.

I just don't get why.

WoW will have revenued about ten billion dollars as of this year.

Why roll over on the essence of the crown jewels, just to purportedly defend against a micro-industry that maybe revenues in a year what WoW does in a week? Unless it is because you still see the Diablo franchise as a radioactive R&D dump whose game space isn't worth defending, and the dev team as a farm team that can maybe move up to Titan, if they prove themselves.

[Alavard]

Originally Posted by Antonin Artaud

It's also a means for Blizzard to self-destruct a brand built over two decades with a reputation for zealously guarding the integrity of the game space.

I just don't get why.

WoW will have revenued about ten billion dollars as of this year.

Why roll over on the essence of the crown jewels, just to purportedly defend against a micro-industry that maybe revenues in a year what WoW does in a week? Unless it is because you still see the Diablo franchise as a radioactive R&D dump whose game space isn't worth defending, and the dev team as a farm team that can maybe move up to Titan, if they prove themselves.

The real why is pretty obvious to me. Sure, it creates profit. But it does that because there is demand. People have been selling and buying Diablo 2 items for a long time. Clearly, people want to be able to do that.

[Antonin Artaud]

Originally Posted by Alavard

Clearly, people want to be able to do that.

People also want to be able to smoke crack, drive drunk, sodomize animals...

It doesn't meant that it needs to be sanctioned by the state.

People also want to be able to buy uber-items from a 3d party in WoW...and use bots to level up their toons... why doesn't Blizzard encourage and regulate that?