05-03-2012, 05:45 PM
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#1 |
 Join Date: Dec 2010
Reputation: 743
Posts: 7,202
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Watch as Kave Johnson tries to balance the Pyro
Hello, and welcome to Apertu- I mean my Pyro balance changes suggestion thread. My name is Kaji, Kave, KV, or just known as KajiVena. Below is my comprehensive list of changes I would make to the Pyro if I were to be hired, out of the blue, by Valve to work on TF2 and help to solve it's various balance issues.
First, let me say some things regarding this thread.
*ahem* So, without further ado, let's get started, shall we? First, we'll cover changes to the Pyro in general. Base Changes
Particles and Afterburn
Airblast
Primary Weaponry Flamethrower Level 1 Flamethrower With the changes listed above, the Flamethrower becomes a skill-indexed weapon that is balanced with it's alternatives, I hope. Uses the "Disruptive" HUD indicator for Afterburn. Backburner Level 10 Flamethrower 100% Critical Hits from Behind (120 Degree Angle) +150% Airblast cost Afterburn applies 33% slower No Random Critical Hits Essentially the same as the current Backburner with a few modifications for a couple (good) reasons. First, its damage increase has been moved to be a part of the Stock 'Thrower to stop complaints about how the Backburner is a "cheap overpowered w+m1 weapon". Its Back Crit angle has been increased by 30 degrees and has additional Mini-Crits on the edges of the Back Crit angle. No Random Critical Hits is now a part of the stats so it is a widely known fact that it does not crit from any other angle. The decrease in Afterburn application assumes that you did your job of flanking and ambushing with the Backburner, so you would not have to rely on Afterburn to kill. Uses the "Disruptive" HUD indicator for Afterburn. Degreaser Level 10 Flamethrower 65% faster weapon switch Afterburn applies 33% faster -10% damage penalty -40% Afterburn Damage on all Afterburn The same weapon with a few changes. First, upfront damage is reduced in the stats to show it still deals ~135 DPS. Afterburn is applied in 8 particles to imppotential Afterburn damage from 60 to 36. Uses the "Annoying" HUD indicator for Afterburn. Phlogistonator Level 10 Flamethrower All fire damage and damage done to burning players increases 'Mmmph', activate to regenerate health and crit on all weapons for several seconds Afterburn applies 33% faster Airblast deals damage and inflicts Afterburn Airblast destroys projectiles No random critical hits A mess. That's what the Phlogistonator is. You just can't salvage it without adding some form of skill-indexing changes, and that is what I hope to do. I'm not sold on whether or not this is the best change possible, but that's why I like feedback. Now let's talk numbers. I think a 16 HP/sec regen for the duration of Mmmph and 50% damage reduction will encourage smarter play. Adding crits to all weapons will make it viable with the Shotguns. I also think that Mmmph should charge in 400 fire damage and that this "fireblast" should deal about 25 damage in addition to instituting Afterburn. Secondary Weaponry Shotgun Level 1 Shotgun Flare Gun Level 10 Flare Gun Detonator Level 10 Flare Gun Alt-Fire: Detonates the flare Mini-Crits burning targets
Also, due to the changes I've made to the Pyro's self-damage resistance and the Detonator, it should be doing around 20 damage a jump. Have fun!  Reserve Shooter Level 10 Shotgun Mini-Crits targets launched airborne by explosions +45% tighter cone of bullet spread (hidden) 35% faster weapon switch -50% Clip Size A weapon that I don't quite hate, but do feel pity for because of it's lack of usefulness on the Soldier and non-Degreaser Pyros. That mini-crit attribute irritates the hell out of me as well because of how buggy it is. Why did valve have to bring it back in the first place? It should have been put to rest long ago with the change to the Direct Hit. I had to change it. It becomes generally more versatile at the cost of its original airshot capabilities. A finely balanced weapon that is useful on all forms of Soldier and Pyro? I definitely would think so. Please make sure to consider the extra upsides before you say anything regarding this change. I know I'm changing the focus of the weapon but that stat really had to go in order for this weapon to become less stupid. Manmelter Level 10 Flare Gun Alt-Fire: Extinguish teammates to gain guaranteed critical hits +50% projectile speed Projectile cannot be deflected Does not crit on burning targets No random critical hits While the weapon itself does not really need changes stat wise, I do want some simple things done with it. First, it needs a reload animation. One of the most common complaints about the thing is that it's hard to tell when it is capable of being fired again. Valve needs to fix this issue. Second, I hate "Cow Mangler syndrome". Too many pointless stats on a weapon just makes it more confusing. "Does not require ammo" shouldn't need mentioning one on all of the Grordbort laser weapons, seriously. Melee Weaponry Overall +25% damage 25% faster swing speed
Fire Axe Level 1 Fire Axe Finally useful are all this time? I think so. It's about time Fire Axe got some love. Axetinguisher Level 10 Fire Axe 100% critical hits vs burning players 20% slower firing speed -50% damage vs non-burning players -50% burn duration While I did say I'd balance up, I also said that the melee changes would incite some balancing so here's a shot at making the Axe less complained about. Before you talk about it, make sure you notice that the damage was upped 25%. 195 becomes 243!  The Homewrecker Level 5 Sledgehammer +200% Damage vs. Buildings 50% Knockback resistance on wearer 20% Sentry resistance on wearer -50% Damage vs. Players Why am I removing the sapper damaging capabilities? Because it's unfair to the Spy who outwitted the Engineer, that's why. Spy and Engineer have a very balanced relationship. Engineer has the advantage, but if Spy succeeds, then all of Engineer's buildings are dead unless another Engineer comes along. That's fair. What's not fair is having the class that already counters Spy counter him even more and intrude upon a balanced class relationship. So that's gone and, in-exchange, you get a Sentry killer. Powerjack Level 5 Sledgehammer On-Kill: +75 HP +25% Melee vulnerability 50% slower swing speed No random critical hits The damage is back, it keeps the health on kill and melee vulnerability (for Medieval), but now punishes you for missing your swings. Better get practicing. Backscratcher Level 10 Garden Rake +50% health from packs on wearer -75% health from healers on wearer Damage got shifted to the Fire Axe, and now the Backscratcher features a faster swing speed! Sharpened Volcano Fragment Level 10 RIFT Fire Axe On Hit: target is engulfed in flames Consectutive hits "level-up" Afterburn damage 35% faster swing speed -50% damage doner To encourage use outside of Medieval mode, while not breaking it within Medieval mode, the axe "levels up" Afterburn with consecutive hits going from standard to Mini-Crit to full-on Critical Afterburn. Each successful hit resets Afterburn duration. Also, it now has an awesome taunt. Cuz, you know, taunts matter. Maul Level 5 Sledgehammer See the Homewrecker. Postal Pummeler Level 10 Mailbox See the Axetinguisher. Third Degree Level 10 Fire Axe All players connected via Medigun beams are hit -30% damage vs non-burning players No random critical hits While I'm not entirely sure on the stats, the Third Degee needs a downside to make it not be a straight upgrade any longer, since the Fire Axe is not useless. Weapon Sets: Gas Jockey The Degreaser + The Powerjack + The Attendant +10% move speed -15 max health Downside is now applicable to all forms of damage. Technically, it has three more HP versus bullets now. Why does this need to be changed? Well, I think that a small loss in health versus bullets does not matter as much as the extra speed does. So, I thought I'd decrease max health insead. A fair trade in my opinion. |
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05-03-2012, 05:46 PM
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#2 |
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Reputation: 743
Posts: 7,202
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Closing Notes
Hope you enjoyed reading! Please leave a reply! This thread was my 5000th post! Talk about awesome coincidences. Also, special thanks to chzchan for helping me with formatting this time around! Any reply I deem exceptionally fantasic will be posted below, as well as any removed changes. Hall of Fame Removed Changes |
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05-03-2012, 06:01 PM
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#3 |
 Join Date: Jan 2012
Reputation: 0
Posts: 31
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You made a small typo @ the fire axe
 Anyway, all these changes I would personally really appreciate but the third degree kind of confuses me.. Would I need to set both the medic and his patient on fire? That seems to hurt the effectiveness for this weapon. Still, good changes. |
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05-03-2012, 06:01 PM
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#4 |
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Reputation: 1218
Posts: 5,224
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yeah alright cool
I can't see anything I disagree with here |
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05-03-2012, 06:10 PM
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#5 | ||
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Reputation: 743
Posts: 7,202
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Quote:
Quote:
Also, I believe the change would reward a Pyro who manages to melee an enemy connected to a burning Medic and vice versa. Still kinda unsure, but hey, that's why I like feedback 
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05-03-2012, 06:16 PM
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#6 |
 Banned
Join Date: Dec 2011
Reputation: 234
Posts: 941
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I like pretty much everything you've changed here, except maybe particle tolerance because I admittedly don't fully understand it.
How long exactly does a Pyro need to keep a bead on someone for 12 particles to hit, and what is the decay for this? Say I hit them with 5 and glance away for a moment and then hit them with another 7, is the counter now at 7 or 12? I'll wait for your response before I move on to my second question about it, as your reply may answer them both. |
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05-03-2012, 06:31 PM
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#7 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Reputation: 743
Posts: 7,202
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Quote:
Also, I believe the decay should start after 6 seconds of not being hit with particles and be 2 particles per second. Hitting them with 5 right away and then hitting them within 6 seconds will allow you to set Afterburn. Last edited by KajiVena: 05-03-2012 at 06:38 PM. |
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05-03-2012, 07:22 PM
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#8 | |||||||
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Reputation: 598
Posts: 2,923
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I tried to condense what I wanted to respond to as much as possible, but that is a really big post. Also, all that formatting made it such a pain to quote the thing I wanted <_<.
Anyway, long response: Quote:
Quote:
Afterburn Damage/Time - Don't really like it, at least not that far. 6 seconds seems a little too short to me. I've always been more partial to 4 per tick/8 seconds, just because 6 seems too short and 10 seems too long imo. Ammo Consumption - Makes sense in line with the fire rate change, but I still worry about a faster ammo consumption combined with the need for airblast. Particle Tolerance - Not sure how I feel about this. I'm all for making it more skill-indexed in order to ignite someone, but 0.36 seconds minimum before a target is even ignited seems a bit harsh. Might work out fine, but I don't think I'll be sold on it unless I could play it myself. Quote:
2. I like that you still keep in Uber-stalling, just made it less effective. I'm on the fence on it myself, and compromise is always a decent solution in my book. Quote:
Degreaser - First thought: "Why does my Flare Gun or Det need to have less afterburn D:". Anyway, still not sold on Afterburn Tolerance, but Degreaser sounds decent considering (0.24 seconds minimum to ignite, seems fine from what I can think of for my usual Degreaser shenanigans). Legit question though: wouldn't this remove crit-flaring/Axtinguishing Pyros? Phlog - Different airblast is a plus in my book, but do you mean 50% damage reduction for the entirety of the Phlog's critboost or just during the taunt? The entire boost seems a little crazy. Quote:
-I don't use Reserve Shooter enough to care about it -I'm honestly curious why you think the Manmelter doesn't need a buff other than a real reload (and no fire rate penalty, it seems?). To me, the Manmelter is the worst secondary weapon the Pyro has, so your decision to keep it more-or-less the same has my interest peeked. Although if you don't want to discuss that in this thread, I understand. Quote:
Axtinguisher - "-50% burn duration", as in, a 3 second afterburn? Seems pretty ridiculous for a melee option, but I don't use Axtinguisher too much so whatevs. Homewrecker - While I love that you got rid of Sapper removal in favor of sentry-destruction, if I'm calculating that right, the damage to buildings is 243/244, enough to one-shot a Lv. 3? Seems a bit extreme. Powerjack - Cool cool. Back Scratcher - Alright. SVF - Another calculation here: +35% swing speed, on top of the stock buff of +25%, +68% swing speed, ~0.25 seconds per swing!? Third Degree - I was gonna argue, but this is in comparison to the new stock, right? If so, fine with me. Quote:
Okay I'm done. |
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05-03-2012, 07:31 PM
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#9 | |
 Join Date: Oct 2010
Reputation: 59
Posts: 328
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You have a lot of good ideas, no doubt, but some things are just unnecessary.
The Axtinguisher should not deal that much damage. Hell, I wish the current Axtinguisher dealt 25% less damage by default (146 on crits). Airblast already gives a huge advantage against Soldiers and Demomen. There's no reason to instantly kill both (5 damage flame + 195 crit). That should be more than enough to balance the weapon. You can still (virtually) one-hit Medics and lower while two-hitting Heavies. it just makes it easier for Soldiers and Demomen to survive which you already have a counter to. Melee doesn't even need a damage buff, period. I'm not encourging Medieval mode, but it does exist. The Phlogistinator's airblast is a great idea. I'd really prefer an airblast on it, even if it only destroys projectiles (and not reflects). Hell, if it worked on Stickies, I'd use it for those spamming Demomen. Critical hits on all weapons is not. Either make it Mini-Crits (more than enough) or have it function with just the Phlogistinator. If you can run around and crit with the Powerjack for 243 damage 100% of the time regaining (and overhealing) for 75HP, don't you think that's a little broken? Reserve Shooter's tighter cone is a bad idea. It's already extremely easy to deal 100+ damage with puff and shoot. It doesn't have to be easier let alone 20% more switch speed (increasing total switch speed by 7%). I'd much rather see the switch speed replaced to "On kill: reload speed increased by 30% for all weapons for 5 seconds" so the Soldier gets a real buff as well. It is a Reserve Shooter (as in a back-up when you aren't loaded). With 3 shots, I agree, you need to be accurate. It does not mean you should give it an accuracy handicap. It just means you should be rewared for accuracy. It takes 2 full seconds to reload entirely. Wouldn't you prefer to reload it in 1.4 seconds, switch to your Rocket Launcher (Soldier only of course), and reload that for a total 4.424 seconds instead of 6.32 seconds? Those are the big ones. I myself play Reserve Jockey, and the only thing I want is a faster reload on the Reserve Shooter. I don't particularly need a buff or nerf with anything. Hell, if you switched the set bonus to the switch speed and put the movement speed on the Degreaser, it would probably lessen all the Axtinguisher rage already. There's little things that can balance the Pyro, but it's aleady a fairly sturdy class. I still want to see Valve do something to make me use the Flamethrower as a primary weapon instead of a secondary. EDIT: Quote:
Last edited by ghostofhalo: 05-03-2012 at 07:47 PM. |
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05-03-2012, 08:21 PM
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#10 |
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Reputation: 1749
Posts: 10,968
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there are a couple of things that i disagree with in this thread
actually, there aren't |
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05-03-2012, 08:33 PM
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#11 |
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Reputation: 527
Posts: 2,879
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I though everything was somewhat good until melee changes.
No, don't do this, who cares about stock melee being useless? You don't buff melee overall, or pyros melee became more powerful than other classes melee, and its unneeded and make no sense. Pyro isn't a melee based class, its a fire based class, his melee should be designed in same way as other classes. |
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05-03-2012, 11:13 PM
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#12 |
 Join Date: Jan 2011
Reputation: 1043
Posts: 2,220
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All good ideas.
Valve doesnt read the forums or care about the game so not one of these will see the light of day but still good ideas. You're a good man, Kaji. Even if your name makes me think of ducks. |
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05-04-2012, 01:01 AM
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#13 |
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Reputation: 331
Posts: 2,991
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My one problem with this is the Phlog. You never explained how much the fireblast would cost, or even if it would cost anything. But my main gripe with it is the crits on all weapons thing. A regenerating pyro with a crit shotgun wouldn't just be ridiculous, it would be horrendously OP. If you wanna make it work with shotguns, why not make it charge with all damage and only give the crits to melee and FT? I like the rest of the changes though, returning the powerjack to it's former glory would be good.
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05-04-2012, 01:20 AM
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#14 |
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Reputation: 211
Posts: 1,585
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The phlog change needs work. Not only does it give pyros the capability to use a falloffless crit shotgun with the health of a dalokohs heavy, it kicks down the phlog's downside of screwed-ness against soldiers. You've overcompensated in buffing it, big time. Keep it minor.
Afterburn DPS should not have been buffed, even with the particle tolerance and lessened time. You shoulda focused on afterburn as a damage aid instead. |
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05-04-2012, 01:28 AM
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#15 |
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Reputation: 174
Posts: 666
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Before anything, I'd like to say I'm completely against weapons changing "afterburn damage" as part of their stats. I think that it needs to be a static variable not manipulable by the weapon you carry. Duration is something else entirely, as would be the "afterburn application time".
After reading through it, I dunno man, it seems like you put a lot of effort into keep the Degreaser and Axtinguisher in the top tier, when you should be trying to rebuild from the new stock. The Degreaser ended up basically buffed, and the Ax didn't really receive any substantial nerf. And kinda as a result of that, as much as you complain about the CM's stat-stacking, everything here seems to have 4 or more lines of stats. There's a certain amount of...simplification I'd say is left to be desired. Aside from that, there's a few things I have to comment on: -So, with the firedelay/damage changes, the Flame Thrower does about 4.56 per particle? That's like 55 damage before afterburn is applied. So at that point, the Axtinguisher really doesn't need to do more than like 120. Actually, if you completely drop that swing speed bonus (I don't quite understand why you included it in the first place, it really just serves to over-complicate all of Pyro's melee weapons and give a conceptual downside to the Ax without really changing anything about it; swing speed penalties don't ever hurt as much as they're supposed to, look at the Ubersaw) and give it a straight "-50% damage vs players", it does 41 base and 123 crits, which is like the perfect amount to drop everything but Soldiers/Heavies with stock. If you want to keep Soldier kills, you can drop it to -40% and have 49/147 crits. -The Homewrecker doesn't need anything but lookforce resistance, which is exclusive (I think) to hitscan, because when you apply it to projectiless you get that weird manipulable knockback. It'd probably completely shut down the FaN when active, but you're probably not going to win a fight vs a Scout with melee out. Also, the change in base damage changes the Homewrecker's ability to destroy buildings before that additional damage boost. It's at like 243 with +200%, and I'm not sure whether or not you wanted one-shots on level 3s. -The Phlog looks like you're trying too hard to merge two ideas. The burn-blast is a cool idea, but I don't think it can work with the Phlog's preexisting mechanics. -On the Axtinguisher, I'd switch "-50% afterburn duration" with "On hit enemy: extinguishes afterburn" to make it a palpable downside with every FT, including the Degreaser. |
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