Go Back   Steam Users' Forums > Steam Game Discussions > T - Z > World of Battles: Morningstar

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-08-2012, 10:26 AM   #1
EagleTwo
 
Join Date: May 2011
Reputation: 25
Posts: 87
Cool Feedback on the game: game breaking stuff

Hello Dev Team,

I am sure you appreciate feedback on the current game. Here is my personal one about some problems I encountered after 24 hours of recorded gaming and 50 victories.

About the units balance :

There is a problem with archers. I made a game where the ennemy had 8 archers, and it was totally unbalanced. As it was a 2 vs 3, we did not have enough archers to counter attack and lost a lot of units in no time.

If you have three or more archers against one unit, you can bet this unit is dead before being able to counter attack, especially light units. IMHO, too many archers in a team breaks the balance.

About the maps :

Some maps are effective, some are a pain to play in multiplayer.

The worst map is probably (I don't know its name) the map with four hills on it. You know, that green map with four triangular hills in a square, each hill having three entry points.

Usually, people get on their closer hill, dispatch the units in defense, and camp, even if it ends in a draw.

There are two reasons explaining that game breaking behavior :

1. archers (again), protected on the hill, can shoot any approaching ennemy from distance, which dissuades any attacker to make the first move, as the attacking units would probably lose half their HP before even making the first hit. Considering the rock-paper-scissor mechanism, the unit is also spotted and becomes useless once on place.

2. There is no visibility of the ennemy hill, so no attack can be planned efficiently. Even if a player wants to attack, it does not know how. This makes any idea of attacking a terrible idea.

In the end, everyone camps, games end in draw, or furious players send all their army in a huge random mass of units, vaguely hoping a miracle all while swearing on the map design.

I think of two possible solutions :

1. units standing on a hill should have full visibility on the other front hill, and not fog of war.

2. archers should not be able to hit any moving units, only standing units. This would balance the things a little bit for any attacker trying to play the game as it is meant to be played.

About the game ambiance:

The battles are quite cool, but seriously, it lacks of more fighting, screaming and battle sounds :-) hundreds of units fighting, and it all seems quiet. We need to be IN da battle! Wuuargh!

About the commercial offer :

First, I think that some players got really tired of all the pay-per-month game offers. The idea of "wallet farming" is a terryfying thing, and only premium game editors should bet on such strategy. If it was not a pay-per-month offer, I would certainly have bought the premium offer.

I think that you could balance by proposing a pay-per-month for players willing premium on all their races, and one shot pay on players willing to buy an unlimited premium but limited to one race only, thus making an incentive to buy multiple unlimited premium offers.

In the end, my opinion also is that actually the items are too expensive, especially the units (1000 gems ? no!). We want to support you guys, but if we do we want you to bring the "extra" thing for the price you actually propose. If it's only +x stats, it's not rewarding enough so far IMHO.

General opinion :

An interesting game, but I will see how good the dev team handles the community requests in the next update

Last edited by EagleTwo: 05-08-2012 at 10:29 AM.
EagleTwo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2012, 02:21 PM   #2
gwynnbleid84
 
 
 
Frogwares
Join Date: May 2012
Reputation: 0
Posts: 11
Hi EagleTwo!

Thanks for the feedback, it's always very helpful for the team to get new oppinions, epescially detailed and explained ones.

I would like to comment several points just now.

Balance for Archers:

Damage of 8 archers doesn't stack when they attack a single unit. If there are more than 2 archers attacking a single target there is an "Overkill" penalty for all of them which you can see in effects pane of these archers on HUD. More archers attacking a target - the higher penalty is. So 8 archers attacking a single target do only damage of about 4 archers. So it's twice less effective than attacking two targets simultaneously. "Overkill" however is not applied when archers are attacking a giant (it's a hint on how to kill a giant fast

Also 8 archers die quick after cavalry charges. Be focused on thme with your cav from the very beginning and advise teammates to do so. Having 8 acrhers in a team seriously increase team's AP (army points) which are used for auto-balancing and thus in most cases this team won't have good pikemen protection against your cav.

In the end, there is a modifier on ranged damage which depends on target unit's movement speed. The higher speed is, the less ranged damage unit takes. So cav is well protected against archers while moving fast. You can see this effect in unit's effects pane as well.

Also I would advise you to have a werewolf or two in a party for this case. They are weak against cav, but very much effective against archers getting only 20% of ranged damage and killing them very fast in melee, not letting even light archers to run away. And they are not afraid of pikemen which usually protect archers.


Maps for Camping:

Your are speaking about Foothills, it's one of biggest maps. It's still not bad for camping, but be sure - camping doesn't rule in the game. I'll explain why.

First, moving unit always has a boost to attack, please have a look on unit's params in tooltip. The faster this unit moves - the bigger bonus is. It's charged while moving and preserved for about 30 seconds (while reducing) after going into melee.It's a clear benefit agains camper. Same for cav - charge is tronger after good run, please have a look on charge bar near a flag.

Second, a single tank unit (personally I advise Dwarven Rock Lords - bigger resistance and nice Stone Shape ability) can create a real mess inside the camp since everyone will aggro to it and thus a big mess will make all this camping units automatically uneffective. Do you know about "Crowd" effect? It reduces attack and defense of all units inside crowd - the bigger crowd is, the lower attack is. While camper tries to arrange his units in this mess you can easy do back and flank attacks.

Third, all the maps (even this one) are made in the way that every hill has at least two entrance. Attack from both sides and you'll smash the camp as a watermellon.

Forth, Divine Wrath, Goblin's Explosives, Stun Grenased and of course AoE giants (dwarven, barbarian, orcish) are made to destroy camps.

Enjoy and again thanks for the report. As for the other things I haven's mentioned in my post - bu sure, we'll discuss them in team.
gwynnbleid84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2012, 02:58 PM   #3
Zorlond
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Reputation: 42
Posts: 651
If I may be allowed to disagree here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynnbleid84 View Post
Balance for Archers:

Damage of 8 archers doesn't stack when they attack a single unit. If there are more than 2 archers attacking a single target there is an "Overkill" penalty for all of them which you can see in effects pane of these archers on HUD. More archers attacking a target - the higher penalty is. So 8 archers attacking a single target do only damage of about 4 archers.
If this is the case, then there is one of three things occouring:
- Overkill is not working as intended at the higher amounts of archer units.
- The equivalent of four archers on one target is enough to kill heavy cavalry within seconds.
- There is another factor in play causing the imbalance. Perhaps the Auto-Leveling effect?

Whatever the case is, he is correct in that charging a hill with massed archers on it is pretty close to suicidal. I've only had consistant success with it when I have my Iron Giant along, and that's because I can have it focus on the front lines while my infantry push through towards the archers. You might succeed with a massed Heavy Infantry charge in Cohort formation (with no Giant), but if the enemy side is even partly awake it won't. I have over 130 victories on one army now, and I've observed this multiple times.


Quote:
First, moving unit always has a boost to attack, please have a look on unit's params in tooltip.
This keeps being said by devs here. I keep checking now and then. This bonus is not showing up on the tooltips. And even if it were, I'm not convinced that it's even relevant. A moving unit is not attacking. An attacking unit is not moving. What does a boost to attack mean if it isn't used? A charging Cavalry unit isn't using Attack, it's using Weight. Someone running away from your units is going to die anyways, as it is difficult (though not impossible) to get out of melee rage, and the retreating unit is simply taking Rear damage the whole way.

So, why is this relevant?


Quote:
Second, a single tank unit (personally I advise Dwarven Rock Lords - bigger resistance and nice Stone Shape ability) can create a real mess inside the camp since everyone will aggro to it and thus a big mess will make all this camping units automatically uneffective. Do you know about "Crowd" effect? It reduces attack and defense of all units inside crowd - the bigger crowd is, the lower attack is. While camper tries to arrange his units in this mess you can easy do back and flank attacks.
Good advice here, but note that if both sides are maneuvering properly for flanks and back attacks, the crowding effect goes away since nobody's standing on top of each other anymore.


Quote:
Third, all the maps (even this one) are made in the way that every hill has at least two entrance. Attack from both sides and you'll smash the camp as a watermellon.
Good idea, except nobody in their right mind leaves the back access unguarded. At the very least, there will be pikemen guarding against the expected cavalry.

And if I may inject a new issue to discuss, the Auto-Leveling feature that is intended to balance the units? It doesn't seem to be working as intended at times. I have seen my Knight Heavy Infantry, in full lvl2 tank gear, be completely destroyed within 30 seconds. And this isn't against Cavalry. If it were that simple, I'd have noticed. They're facing the other troop types, and getting slaughtered, with or without support.

I've seen my HI and Dwarf Heavy Pike completely and repeatedly fail to Stand Ground against pretty much anything that comes at them. There's not even a pause, the line just instantly fails and my archers are left exposed. Fortunately, Giants seem largely unaffected by this, except for unlucky fights where the enemy team has three of them... So, is it possible to have someone fully explain how the game handles this auto-leveling feature? Does it simply bring up all stats simultaneously?

Last edited by Zorlond: 05-08-2012 at 03:02 PM.
Zorlond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2012, 07:00 PM   #4
Shadow XD
 
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Reputation: 10
Posts: 160
I don't find that the overkill feature "doesn't work". I've had a game where my ally and I took a hill in one of the hill maps and played defense the whole round, we both had archers that were level 8 and he had extra amounts of the same line unit archers, so in the end we had 5 heavy archers and 1 light archer) we let our archers focus fire on the only scouting level 8 light cavalry moving through and we bearly did any damage, then after they tried to rush the hill we had to manually aim our archers, because they all fired on the same level 8 light pikeman group for a whole 2 minutes without killing it.

I've also seen this boost effect while moving, it literally says under the unit icon on the top right if you have a moving unit "This unit is moving, it will receive a boost when it stops to attack" or something similar.

I've seen more defenders camping lose battles than campers winning or having stalemates, I've only seen camping work on newbies who don't know how to attack, since the attacker has the advantage of deciding when and what to attack, while the defenders must deal with what is at hand and keep shifting their forces. Most common flaw I see with defenders and attackers is that they focus what defenses they have on archers, when archers are only a supporting group that is completely lost once the formation is broken and it's easier for an attacker to just select all their army and make a beeline for their weak spots by clicking on the defenders archers, with no where to run the enemy will rush to the defense of their archers while your archers pummel them with arrows. Also there are less chances for your units to crowd themselves since your attacking on multiple fronts, while the enemy will have to manually move their units away from auto attacking and making a cluster for wrath spam.

And yes I think the auto leveling feature just does a general boost to your units though with some randomness put in, I've had my giant get a bigger boost to attack while a similarly leveled ally giant had a bigger boost to hp unlocking his level 3 spell.

I'd rather premium stay pay for a limited duration, most of the advantages of premium become redundant as you level, like having exp boosts and limitless capacity for a single unit (which is an awful idea unless your planning to goof around by having 16 sets of cold ones just run by doing cavalry runs) and the thing that will probably be worth the most is the minor boost to your leader abilities and minor cp boost, which I don't want people unlocking forever.
Shadow XD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 12:49 AM   #5
krutyvus
 
Frogwares
Join Date: Apr 2012
Reputation: 9
Posts: 206
Quote:
This keeps being said by devs here. I keep checking now and then. This bonus is not showing up on the tooltips. And even if it were, I'm not convinced that it's even relevant. A moving unit is not attacking. An attacking unit is not moving. What does a boost to attack mean if it isn't used? A charging Cavalry unit isn't using Attack, it's using Weight. Someone running away from your units is going to die anyways, as it is difficult (though not impossible) to get out of melee rage, and the retreating unit is simply taking Rear damage the whole way.

So, why is this relevant?
Bonus to attack from movement is given to all melee units except giants.
That bonus grows step by step till the limit of 15% while your units are moving.
And then fade in melee during a certain amount of time.
You can see unit attack increased while moving.
As a result if 2 absolutely the same units will meet on the battlefield, the one that was standing will loose to the one that will come to fight him.
Learn more here:
http://wiki.worldofbattles.com/doku.php/battle
krutyvus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 04:32 AM   #6
seymour40
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Reputation: 0
Posts: 2
Red face Biggest Problem In The Gameplay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

okay so i am loving this game matchmaking system finally getting an overhaul YES!!!! but what should be fixed next is melee units moving through pike,infantry (light&heavy)
1. they take little to no damage even in stand ground mode they just walk right through
2. archers are completely useless if someone marches 20 infantry units past every unit you have game over absolutely no fun last 5 games same thing over and over again
3. its a game about strategy and that is not strategy nor is there anything i have found to stop it from happening especially when in a pug group there is no warning about what your going up against and you cannot change units to adapt cause you may not even be able to play the same person again

Possible Fixes!!....

1. Pike, infantry (heavy & light) should not be able to walk through each other allowing for a more strategic and realistic gameplay element
2. Make it harder for the units to walk through your units in stand ground mode
3. Make units walking through other units take a damage multiplier to any damage dealt as well as glancing damage
4.Units Moving through take a much bigger reduction in movement through troops allowing for a chance to take the units out before they can get through and destroy your archers

Love the Game but this is the worst game play element in the game especially when a player wants to not have 300 units in his army and play a more specialized role in the battles in a word im just very frustrated please fix this issue

Last edited by seymour40: 05-09-2012 at 04:38 AM.
seymour40 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 07:26 AM   #7
Spattercat
 
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Reputation: 21
Posts: 799
You know that resistance and weight both influence stand your ground, right? Just to be sure.
Spattercat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 08:03 AM   #8
pilnomi
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Reputation: 2
Posts: 167
i dread foothills -- it's seriously a camp-fest

movement bonus? crowded penalty? if these actually exist they should be more pronounced. notwithstanding, your archers would not be crowded in the foothills scenario anyway, just your pike and infantry, which would probably be in stand ground and/or defensive formation anyway.

these are all real issues with the game, trying to argue them away isn't going to change them..
pilnomi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 08:49 AM   #9
gwynnbleid84
 
 
 
Frogwares
Join Date: May 2012
Reputation: 0
Posts: 11
seymour40, thanks for an interesting post, I suppose it's worthy a separate thread.

It was a long road to make the battle gameplay you see right now and we've tried abd alpha-tested numerous of possible features and options including some of the ones you've wrote about. No doubts, the battle should be improved and it will be improved in one way or another, it's a never ending race for us to make everyone happy. And as always making ones happy makes the others unhappy But the dev on that is defenitely not over.

Let me comment some of your proposals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seymour40 View Post
1. Pike, infantry (heavy & light) should not be able to walk through each other allowing for a more strategic and realistic gameplay element
Well, we've tried to limit the movement of troops through each other in the way similar to how it's implemented in TW. The clear results of that were:

1) Lowering the dynamics of the battle - as a unit goes into melee it has a tendency to go deeper and deeper into enemy lines, after that going out, right, left or through is nearly useless since while doing this unit is going to be destroyed.

2) As a consequence of said above the cost of a single mistake has grown. In most cases players which have missed some important point in the beginning of the battle were not able to change their strategy about a unit which is already closed in melee.

So it was a battle of a single strategy - no adaptation and thus victorious team was defined in first 1 minute of the battle. And then is was 9 dull minutes for the loosing team of being a meat without possibility to change anything. Not fun at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seymour40 View Post
2. Make it harder for the units to walk through your units in stand ground mode
Actually units can't go throw enemies which are in stand ground mode at all UNTIL moving unit's STRENGTH is higher than a standing unit's RESISTANCE, so it's a matter of parameters. So if you want to protect archers I advise you to have heavy infantry (preferably - dwarven heavy infantry) or heavy pikemen equipped with resistance items to be in a stand ground mode. Still beware the cav charges - they have weight and speed modifiers which gives them more chance to break the stand. Once broken a unit can't switch stand ground mode ON back for some time.

But the best thing to protect archers is having your teammate (or preferably - a partymate) or even yourself to control 1-2 pikemen near your archers - you may choose light or heavy depending on how you usually move your archers. Attacking cav won't be effective in this case at all.

As for light infantry trying to cut your archers - remember to control your archers well. Infantry which is fighting one archer unit while being shot by two others in 10 meters and pikemen unit attacking in back won't live long

Try to imagine how efficient camping will be if everyone can protect his acrhers without necessity to control them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seymour40 View Post
3. Make units walking through other units take a damage multiplier to any damage dealt as well as glancing damage
We had that unitil version 1.2, it was called "retreat damage". I would reply the same as for point 1. It was a great limitation for tactics adaptation in realtime and increased the cost of mistake greatly. This way the fun was really limited because no player took the risk to make his unit leave current melee and and move it to different location or target.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seymour40 View Post
4.Units Moving through take a much bigger reduction in movement through troops allowing for a chance to take the units out before they can get through and destroy your archers .
Maybe you are right and we need to tweak this speed reduction coefficient. We'll experiment on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seymour40 View Post
Love the Game but this is the worst game play element in the game especially when a player wants to not have 300 units in his army and play a more specialized role in the battles in a word im just very frustrated please fix this issue
I'm sad because of your conclusion, but try to think about the following thing - this is a game about control. You need to control your units efficiently, all of them, to win. There is no way in the game to benificiate from having your units staying in place and waiting, being heavily protected, blocking everyone, whatever. This was made with purpose to make camping a failed strategy, because what's really dull is to have two teams each staying on a hill and waiting..
gwynnbleid84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 08:51 AM   #10
Zorlond
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Reputation: 42
Posts: 651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spattercat View Post
You know that resistance and weight both influence stand your ground, right? Just to be sure.
It apparently doesn't make much difference when the enemy's been leveld up to or past the level of your units. They're boosted up to the point where Stand Ground doesn't work against them.
Zorlond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 09:00 AM   #11
gwynnbleid84
 
 
 
Frogwares
Join Date: May 2012
Reputation: 0
Posts: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by pilnomi View Post
i dread foothills -- it's seriously a camp-fest

movement bonus? crowded penalty? if these actually exist they should be more pronounced. notwithstanding, your archers would not be crowded in the foothills scenario anyway, just your pike and infantry, which would probably be in stand ground and/or defensive formation anyway.

these are all real issues with the game, trying to argue them away isn't going to change them..
Foothills? Well, ok, if you vote for that (and you aren't the first), we'll finally switch this level off in matchmaking queue. It's not that we agree that it's an absolute camp-fest as you say - it's just rather difficult to synchronize an attack on a hill from two sides well for non-prepared party on while exactly on this map it's vital for winning. So should we switch it off?
gwynnbleid84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 09:13 AM   #12
gwynnbleid84
 
 
 
Frogwares
Join Date: May 2012
Reputation: 0
Posts: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorlond View Post
It apparently doesn't make much difference when the enemy's been leveld up to or past the level of your units. They're boosted up to the point where Stand Ground doesn't work against them.
Matchmaking doest this way ONLY if your team has singificantly more units (about +20%) than opposing team which's units are finally auto-balanced and raised higher then yours.

But still the PROPORTION of parameters is kept even after auto-balancing, this secures unit's logic in most cases. Therefore light pikemen or infantry which is blessed to 12th power rating still can't pass through heavy infantry equipped with shields (VERY important for standing ground) of 10th power rating. It simply has so few strength initially that even after applying auto-balancing coefficient its strength isn't significantly higher.

However, thanks for you report, we'll make sure again that stand ground doesn't suffer too much from auto-balancing.
gwynnbleid84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 09:14 AM   #13
pilnomi
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Reputation: 2
Posts: 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynnbleid84 View Post
Foothills? Well, ok, if you vote for that (and you aren't the first), we'll finally switch this level off in matchmaking queue. It's not that we agree that it's an absolute camp-fest as you say - it's just rather difficult to synchronize an attack on a hill from two sides well for non-prepared party on while exactly on this map it's vital for winning. So should we switch it off?
not at all. I would suggest making camping even less desirable -- you pointed out some efforts already, but since everyone still seems to be camping, my opinion would be play with the levers you already have -- increase movement bonus and/or increase length of bonus after stopping moving, increase crowding penalty or enhance this penality is some way (like adding a trailing time effect: 10s after crowded you still are crowded, as your unit tries to re-organize)..

The map itself is a good idea and a decent layout, if we could encourage people to play it differently, then it could be alot of fun..

*edit* ooooh.. a troop bonus for holding the exact middle of the map!!

Last edited by pilnomi: 05-09-2012 at 09:17 AM.
pilnomi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 09:18 AM   #14
gwynnbleid84
 
 
 
Frogwares
Join Date: May 2012
Reputation: 0
Posts: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by pilnomi View Post
not at all. I would suggest making camping even less desirable -- you pointed out some efforts already, but since everyone still seems to be camping, my opinion would be play with the levers you already have -- increase movement bonus and/or increase length of bonus after stopping moving, increase crowding penalty or enhance this penality is some way (like adding a trailing time effect: 10s after crowded you still are crowded, as your unit tries to re-organize)..

The map itself is a good idea and a decent layout, if we could encourage people to play it differently, then it could be alot of fun..

*edit* ooooh.. a troop bonus for holding the exact middle of the map!!
Thanks, we'll experiment with that.
gwynnbleid84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2012, 11:35 AM   #15
Gerdo
 
 
 
Join Date: May 2012
Reputation: 0
Posts: 5
I don't get why there's so much whining about this. In this game you can basically use any setup you like. if you notice it's not good enough then change it. Or, maybe it's not your setup but the way you play it that's wrong?

When you face up against someone who have lots of archers you will always find that they lack in some other department. lots of archers can be deadly if you just let them shoot but if you just sen a unit or two into their archers they'll suddenly become next to useless.

You shouldn't blame the game for your shortcomings. I used to have a group of 2 heavy infantry. 2 heavy archers and a heavy pikeman group. I realized this setup didn't do enough damage so I changed my pikemens to some more archers. unfortunately this turned into a race for who could shoot the longest and since I was using doorf (xbow) my range was often the shortest plus cavalry was devastating so I went back to the drawingboard to check what I needed and I ended up getting Priests of Deus, they have a ability to heal your units. this turned out be be a great tool to keep my archers alive until I was in range and since it was xbows I usually did more dmg once I finally got to shoot.
Long story short, I've since then changed setup lots of time and I still change it to try getting better results.

Find a setup you like and then adapt it so it will work for the situations you face.

you complain that it's to hard to attack someone who're camping.. I don't agree, I find it that every time I'm on the offence and attack a fortified position I have the advantage. maybe this is because I noticed how my stand ground units were useless when facing a giant and I just started using my opponents tactic against them. what worked for them against me works just as well for me against them.
Gerdo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Steam Users' Forums > Steam Game Discussions > T - Z > World of Battles: Morningstar


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site Content Copyright Valve Corporation 1998-2014, All Rights Reserved.