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Old 05-31-2012, 10:38 AM   #1
EliteTemptation
 
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Post USB vs ps/2 but for a mouse

Alright so I already know ps2 > usb for a keyboard (mainly if you need the extra keys pressed at once)


Anyway, I'm tossing my gaming mouse and going back to an optical (these new infrared sensors/laser sensors all have issues, whether it's prediction, minor positive acceleration or minor negative acceleration) - Here's a good thread which shows a few popular mice which have good sensors and which have poor ones: http://www.esreality.com/post/202466...wless-sensors/


So anyway, I'm getting the intellimouse explorer 3.0

It comes USB and with a ps/2 adapter

Now this mouse comes at 400 dpi (that's fine, anything north of 400 dpi you'd have to use raw input or else you'd get all kinds of minor annoyances)


But the mouse ships at a USB rate of 125hz, now in reality this would work find with a screen refreshing at 120hz but for whatever reason I'm led to believe that a mouse @ 1000hz responds faster than a mouse at 125hz.


Anyway I'm curious, if I use the ps/2 port (which should theoretically be faster) what would the hz speed be? I believe being ps/2 would be the driverless version.


Would it still be 125hz, or possibly higher? Would it be faster/better to use?

Can you tweak the hz speed of a ps/2 port? Say I wanted to make it 500hz


Can you tweak it only in usb?


Reference thread: http://www.esreality.com/?a=longpost&id=1265679&page=5 (This has a graph showing the mouse at 1000hz, not sure how. Also I've read that anything north of 500hz on a mouse like this would cause issues)


Thanks in advance for people who help out.

Last edited by EliteTemptation: 05-31-2012 at 10:51 AM.
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Old 05-31-2012, 11:23 AM   #2
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PS/2 connections don't poll, they send an interrupt signal on keypress.
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Old 05-31-2012, 11:48 AM   #3
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right right, but I want to know about the sensor for a mouse

Like what hz would it be default while using the ps/2 port, would it be more responsive in ps/2, etc etc
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Old 05-31-2012, 11:58 AM   #4
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They are both serial connections. USB is much faster, but the bandwidth is across many ports as opposed to one port. Why don't you just try it?
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Old 05-31-2012, 12:03 PM   #5
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I can't try it because this mouse hasn't arrived


I'm just curious as to what frequency the mouse will attempt to use on a ps/2 port if the default for it for usb is 125hz.

Also if there really is a difference between 125(?ms)-500(2ms)-1000(1ms) hz if the monitor isn't refreshing near anything that fast (fastest monitor for use I have is 120hz)

And if it's possible to make the hz higher with a ps/2 port, like the graph shows that mouse at 1000hz even though it operates default at 125 and can't be changed via drivers

Since all recent mice have been gaming mice I simply changed the hz via drivers, this is going to basically be driverless in ps/2


Anyway, it's a whole mouse test for myself, if this mouse doesn't suite me, I'll swap to the g400 (the only recent logitech mouse which doesn't have positive/negative accel/prediction) and if that fails then to the zowie EC1
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Old 05-31-2012, 01:15 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EliteTemptation View Post
I can't try it because this mouse hasn't arrived


I'm just curious as to what frequency the mouse will attempt to use on a ps/2 port if the default for it for usb is 125hz.
According to wikipedia, the ps/2 port clock rate is a measly 16Khz. It's just a simple legacy serial connection, it's speeds can get no faster than 115Kbps (about 10-20KB/s)

Quote:
Also if there really is a difference between 125(?ms)-500(2ms)-1000(1ms) hz if the monitor isn't refreshing near anything that fast (fastest monitor for use I have is 120hz)
Depends. some people say yes, some (me) say it makes no difference. It's personal perception.

Quote:
And if it's possible to make the hz higher with a ps/2 port, like the graph shows that mouse at 1000hz even though it operates default at 125 and can't be changed via drivers
PS/2 is a legacy serial port. it can't be clocked any higher.

Quote:
Since all recent mice have been gaming mice I simply changed the hz via drivers, this is going to basically be driverless in ps/2
it's not really driverless. Like with USB, drivers exist, but they are not necessary, generic drivers work for any PS/2 mouse. you only need specific drivers if you need specific product support, like for extra buttons. (beyond the standard 3).
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Old 05-31-2012, 05:44 PM   #7
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I haz it, go usb, overclock to 500hz, and ur rollin.
There is a definite diff between 125 and 500, none between 500 and 1000 on the intellimouse.

Oh and i read somewhere that u can only do 125hz max on ps2, if i remember that correctly, im pretty sure.

And i think the IEM 3.0 is 450 dpi.

Last edited by DI- Pernicious: 05-31-2012 at 05:47 PM.
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Old 05-31-2012, 05:57 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by DI- Pernicious View Post
I haz it, go usb, overclock to 500hz, and ur rollin.
There is a definite diff between 125 and 500, none between 500 and 1000 on the intellimouse.

Oh and i read somewhere that u can only do 125hz max on ps2, if i remember that correctly, im pretty sure.

And i think the IEM 3.0 is 450 dpi.
thanks thug

It's 400 dpi


I don't think max is 125hz on ps/2, maybe back then on older motherboards


I'm going to self test this, btw how do I get it to 500 hz since the drivers it has won't do it/// I've seen a few threads online which require downloading files etc etc to change it, then I've also seen one which simply opens up regedit and you change it for that usb slot only



This is just another test mouse, if I feel it's an improvement I'll stick with it, if I feel it's a failure I move onto the next mouse, I'm on a mouse adventure to find a mouse that grips well and preforms well, sort of like my first optical mouse.
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Old 06-01-2012, 05:49 AM   #9
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I believe 200hz is the max on PS/2. 100hz is the default.
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Old 06-01-2012, 08:34 AM   #10
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@SirDrexl

Right right, so PS/2 would be the smarter move without overclocking the USB port

I belive you could tweak ps/2 polling speeds on XP but it isn't present on windows 7 :{

Thanks guys, I'll leave this to own testing, also if anyone can post a quick way to OC the hz that'd be great
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Old 06-01-2012, 09:43 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EliteTemptation View Post
@SirDrexl

Right right, so PS/2 would be the smarter move without overclocking the USB port.
What?

PS/2 is smarter because it's a dedicated port, while USB shares bandwidth. However in terms of raw data throughput, USB has PS/2 beat by a mile.

If the max polling rate you can hit on PS/2 is 200hz, USB (not overclocked) can easily hit 1000hz. At that point, it's all up to whether the mouse support is or not.
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Old 06-01-2012, 10:04 AM   #12
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The device (mouse/keyboard) generates the clock signal on a PS/2 connection, but the PS/2 port on the motherboard controls the communication. That clock frequency can be between 10-16.7 kHz. There are 11-12 bits in each data packet.

http://www.computer-engineering.org/ps2protocol/

I think this may help, but I'm not sure it's accurate for all motherboards and PS/2 controllers.

http://enemyterritorytips.wordpress....oother-aiming/
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Old 06-01-2012, 10:07 AM   #13
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This thread is like Deja Vu for me, I just bought a few of the old Microsoft Wheel Mouse Optical 1.1a's about 2 weeks ago. They have the same optics as the Intellimouse 3.0, just not the side buttons.

You will first want to disable Windows Mouse Acceleration using the Registry Fix that was made for it (even if you turn it off in games and such, there is still a small amount of Mouse Acceleration through Windows.) Then you'll need to increase the polling rate to eliminate the buffer wall that you can hit while using the mouse.


There's a FANTASTIC guide for all of the steps you'll need to do in order to achieve what you're looking for that I used when I had to set mine up.

Mouse Optimization Guide: Acceleration Fix and Polling Rate Change.




As far as why you'd want to change the Polling Rate...

"As you can see, the maximum speed problem disappears once you overclock the USB port and you can see new characteristics of the mouse. Perfect Control now goes up to 1.55 m/s (60"/s). Overclocking the Microsoft Wheel Mouse Optical improves the sensor performance. You also get the added benefit of reduced latency from 8ms at 125 Hz to just 1ms at 1000 Hz. Note that you only need to clock the USB port to 250 Hz polling to eliminate the buffer problem"
Source: ESReality MouseScore 2007


I've been running my WMO 1.1a at 500Hz and I haven't had any issues at all with it. I do know that lots of people on ESReality have been running theirs at 1000Hz without issues, but I figure if I only need to be at 500Hz to remove the issue and I don't notice any input lag or issues, then why push the mouse any harder.
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Old 06-01-2012, 01:00 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rotNdude View Post
The device (mouse/keyboard) generates the clock signal on a PS/2 connection, but the PS/2 port on the motherboard controls the communication. That clock frequency can be between 10-16.7 kHz. There are 11-12 bits in each data packet.

http://www.computer-engineering.org/ps2protocol/

I think this may help, but I'm not sure it's accurate for all motherboards and PS/2 controllers.

http://enemyterritorytips.wordpress....oother-aiming/
Right right, good info in there; but the info is unfortunately outdated (2003 article) the operating systems/motherboards have changed since then, so those speeds I believe to be off

@ the second link, that also tells me what I need to know, so I can adjust my ps/2 thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus View Post
This thread is like Deja Vu for me, I just bought a few of the old Microsoft Wheel Mouse Optical 1.1a's about 2 weeks ago. They have the same optics as the Intellimouse 3.0, just not the side buttons.

You will first want to disable Windows Mouse Acceleration using the Registry Fix that was made for it (even if you turn it off in games and such, there is still a small amount of Mouse Acceleration through Windows.) Then you'll need to increase the polling rate to eliminate the buffer wall that you can hit while using the mouse.


There's a FANTASTIC guide for all of the steps you'll need to do in order to achieve what you're looking for that I used when I had to set mine up.

Mouse Optimization Guide: Acceleration Fix and Polling Rate Change.




As far as why you'd want to change the Polling Rate...

"As you can see, the maximum speed problem disappears once you overclock the USB port and you can see new characteristics of the mouse. Perfect Control now goes up to 1.55 m/s (60"/s). Overclocking the Microsoft Wheel Mouse Optical improves the sensor performance. You also get the added benefit of reduced latency from 8ms at 125 Hz to just 1ms at 1000 Hz. Note that you only need to clock the USB port to 250 Hz polling to eliminate the buffer problem"
Source: ESReality MouseScore 2007


I've been running my WMO 1.1a at 500Hz and I haven't had any issues at all with it. I do know that lots of people on ESReality have been running theirs at 1000Hz without issues, but I figure if I only need to be at 500Hz to remove the issue and I don't notice any input lag or issues, then why push the mouse any harder.

Thanks this is what I needed to read, ALTHOUGH I'm still going to do my own testing with ps/2 VS Usb


As for the mouse still having accel if disabled in windows, I don't need the mouse fix because most games I play support RAW input which reads directly from the mouse and games that don't support raw input, I have a program called RInput which directly injects into the game and allows me to use raw input


I'll also test the mouse at 500/1000 hz, and if possible see if I can do the same in the ps/2 port

Only reason I believe the ps/2 port may be better is because of how much better my keyboard is in the ps/2 port (and my keyboard is doing 1000 hz in ps/2)

Last edited by EliteTemptation: 06-01-2012 at 01:02 PM.
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Old 06-01-2012, 01:27 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by EliteTemptation View Post
Only reason I believe the ps/2 port may be better is because of how much better my keyboard is in the ps/2 port (and my keyboard is doing 1000 hz in ps/2)
The only advantage a keyboard really gets in PS2 vs USB is unlimited n-key rollover, where USB generally will have some number cap that varies depending on what keyboard you're using, and the fact that the PS2 sends a signal that forces a hardware interrupt, rather than being polled. The polling rates on a keyboard are really just a feel good, they won't make any discernible difference in actual usage, unless you have some redonkulously low rate.



"Cherry MX switches need 5ms of debouncing time, while rubber domes need longer (exactly how long depends on their quality). Let's assume for a minute that all switches have the 5ms debouncing time of Cherry MX switches. Even if you had super human speed and reflexes, every single key would be delayed by at least that much. So really, any polling rate over 200Hz (at best) is absolutely useless.

PS/2 wins on three fronts: First, it supports full n-key rollover. Second, PS/2 keyboards aren't polled, but are completely interrupt based. And third, it is impossible for it to be delayed by the USB bus being used by other devices."
Source: Overclock.net Mechanical Keyboard Guide
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