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Old 06-02-2012, 09:14 AM   #1
KainKlarden
 
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Worst best game i've played in a while

IMPORTANT EDIT: A lot of issues i mention have been fixed.

Vessel is one of those games, where the amount of both good and bad, the amazing and frustrating is so high, that even when those extremes are on pretty much the same level, it doesn't produce a "mediocre" experience. It a game which you love and hate at the same time. You love it for all the good stuff it does, you hate it for all the bad thing it does, and you hate it even more because you see that it could do so much better and does in other moments. Right now, it's a game which i choose to like, because i want to like it, despite it's bad things. And right now, it's a game i can hardly recommend to anyone, as i can see all of my friends playing it to the end, and i'm not into recommending games, people wouldn't want to finish.

I understand, that the team behind the game was rather small, so i'm not trying to just bash you, and i'm obviously not demanding anything, moreover, some things i found bad might not be bad for others. But I'm going to list stuff i loved/hated in the game, just in case some of this might help the team.

What the game does absolutely right, is the art style and audio design. It looks and feels perfect, and it's something most fresh development studios can't get right on their first go. So it's nice to see it being done right here.

At the same time, though, there are some strange troubles with the sound, which hurts the greatness of the audio and music parts used. For example, it seems that the game can't handle some sounds and music at the same time, as the some sounds just get cut off as soon as another starts. It might be my hardware problem, obviously, but it seems to be a problem on the game (engine?) side. The last time i definitely remember hearing this is near the working machines in the mines, if you try to spray water or do something else, that involves the long sound. Also, it's a bit sad, that while music is very dynamic in some parts (increasing complexity when fluros come to life in puzzles), in others it just fades out to be replaced by another track instead of dynamically seguing in the new track. It wouldn't be a problem, if the game was just a series of disconnected levels, but in a more or less continuous world it just doesn't do justice to the quality of the music itself.

Another thing, that feels a bit frustrating in terms of the presentation is, that you can't skip the intro logos, the intro video and there are loading screens, which take somewhat longer than you expect. It's not a big thing, but can get frustrating. Especially if people are having trouble with starting the game (which may happen occasionally), as they might have to sit through the logos, loading and intro every time they try if the game works properly or not.

The intro has an additional annoyance problem hidden in the fact, that it's hard to care about the story at all. And the problem of that lies in the fact, that the player is not motivated to care about the nameless main character at all. The only characters you can care about in this game, are the world and fluros. The reason for the first is the art design - the world looks very beautiful and it's interesting to explore it. And you care about the fluros because they actually feel real, cute and beautiful. Stupid and frustrating sometimes, sure, but like with Goo in World of Goo, you forgive them that. You don't care or forgive your playable character anything. And you don't care about what he wants. So, while the focus of the game always stays on fluros (which was a good choice), you experience the game through the character you see and control but don't care about (or just outright hate, when he does something you didn't want him to do, on which i talk in the next section).

But the biggest problems, of course, lie in the mechanics. First thing is, while i understand why the developers decided to go with the honest physics for all the stuff, instead of going for pre-baked animations, it creates quite a lot of problems, from small, to big. Buttons not being pushed properly, random falls from ladder (and an infuriating ladder jumping section in the Mines), levers not being pulled by the weight of the character, shaking or swinging something feeling wrong, water sometimes pushing you several meters away for no reason, small purple liquid particles being completely unseen, yet hurting you as they explode, fluros having or not having enough liquid for the puzzle being rather random (where, for example, in the "if my calculations are correct" puzzle lower two seeds might or might not have enough water to live on random chance), when some lava may occasionally fall on you from somewhere it shouldn't have fallen on you, and killing you in several factory parts... Game just constantly feels half-random, which, for a platforming and puzzle game, is very bad.

Also bad are some choices for puzzles or resupply ways. For example the entire Workshop hub area puzzles are just frustrating and boring busywork on player's side. You understand how the puzzle should be completed, but if you fail (which may randomly just happen, because of the random nature of physics), you have to do a lot of boring running around and waiting again and again until it works. Which, again, would've probably worked in a less frustrating way of not for the fact, that half the time you fail, you fail because of the random chance. Same goes for several locations, where resupplying the liquid you need for the puzzle is a very slow and annoying process, or a process which requires you to run several locations back and climb those annoying ladders.

Then, there's the balancing problem, for example, factory is the hardest location in terms of trying to stay alive. And it's the first location you go to after the workshop. Difficulty-wise, orchard seems like a much better first location, and even mines are, except for several rather frustrating puzzles, which, again, rely too much on a more random elements of gameplay, are easier to play through than the factory. Yes, the factory has easiest puzzles. But to get to those you have to constantly try to not die and replay entire sections of gameplay if you do. Which is rather easy, because of, again, random factor and a rather weak platforming part of the game mechanic. And of course, i haven't even been able to finish the factory 100%, because of that bug i wrote about, leaving it the only thing i game i didn't do completely.

Of course, there are also several puzzles which are really hard to figure out, mostly because even the correct solutions seem to be not working some times, because of the random nature of the physics, but those actually frustrate less than times, where you know what to do, you just can't make it work properly. And where your failure means more busywork. As it doesn't motivate the player to try again. It motivates them to just say: f**k that! And walk away from the game.

There are some other things, like secrets feeling a bit more like an afterthought addition, most nozzles being completely useless (where would you even use the back-running one? seriously?), and the world, despite it's beauty, seeming unfinished and smaller than it was planned (or at least, smaller than i, as a player, would like it to be).

So, all in all it's very hard for me to recommend Vessel as it is now to anyone, despite it's high quality and definite passion and talent in the team. I know, that i enjoyed it greatly and wait for more games from the developer. But i also can't help but think, that i could've enjoyed the game so much more. So good luck to Strange Loop Games with whatever they choose to do next, and thank you for Vessel.

Last edited by KainKlarden: 06-23-2012 at 01:03 PM.
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Old 06-02-2012, 02:26 PM   #2
LochnarkAP
 
 
 
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Question

Back to the point, what do you want to tell us with this large story?
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Old 06-04-2012, 01:25 PM   #3
johnk
 
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Hi KainKlarden, if nothing else thanks for the detailed feedback, not fun to read but useful nonetheless.

The problems you've run into are largely a result of our ambition to make the game physical in every aspect, specifically basing all of the gameplay around the liquid simulation we created. There's a certain pleasure in just experiencing these simulations through your avatar, and the puzzles you call 'busy work' at the beginning of the game are built with that goal in mind - acclimating the player to the physics of the world (something they wont be familiar with from most other games), and letting them experience and 'play' with it in a more free-form way. Most of the gameplay however centers instead on puzzles, taking higher level concepts about the liquid and combining them, leaving the player to physically manipulate the world around them to achieve these goals. Structuring conceptual puzzles on top of the chaos of a physics system is not an easy task, but I felt so much was gained from this that it was worth the risk and extra work. The puzzles are emergent and natural, not arbitrary as they would be otherwise.

The unfortunate side effect of this is that some players will encounter chaos that we have not managed to wrangle under our control. Our hope was that the fun of simply experiencing such a system would overcome the chaotic events (I know I still find it enjoyable when Fluros do something unexpected, even if it means I need to reset some things), and I think with most players we have succeeded, but not all. Nevertheless, I wouldn't sacrifice this feature of a physical world for the sake of a completely polished playthrough - too much relies on it, and the positive outweigh the negatives in my opinion. The puzzles aren't 'faked' in this game, and everything you solve is a natural intersection of the systems we built, not an arbitrary end decision by a designer. That is worth a lot in my opinion.

That said, it's certainly the case that there are bumps in difficulty and platforming mechanics that can be smoothed out, and we plan to do that in anticipation of the console ports, and we will be rolling it out to Steam as well. I've already tuned the jump quite a bit to make it more satisfying and responsive. I'm going to adjust the difficulty in the Factory as well. So it is helpful to point out specific points that you find difficult, as we are not finished-finished with game.

Two additional notes: The character's name is Arkwright, it's on the journal page 0 if you scroll to the left. For game length, it's an average of 10 hours which is already several times longer than most puzzle/platformer games out there.

Thanks for the feedback.
Best,
-John

Last edited by johnk: 06-04-2012 at 10:57 PM.
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Old 06-04-2012, 01:46 PM   #4
KainKlarden
 
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Originally Posted by johnk View Post
'busy work' at the beginning of the game
You misunderstood, i loved the beginning of the game. It was, in fact, i think the best and most refind part of the game. By "busy work" i meant the parts, where, for example, your red-eye red liquid fluros is following you to the far door in the workshop (to open the mines) and then something goes not according to the plan and you have to run all the way back to the machine, hope that you stay long enough on the red liquid release button so fluros formw, and not long enough for it to form and instantly somersault and explode and then wait and it it comes aaaaaaaalll the way to that far door to the mines again. It's the things like this. Or when you try to suck the liquid you need from the disconnected pipes in the mines, and you have to find the spot, where the suction works the way you need. And stuff like this. You just spend a lot of time in preparing the next tries for the puzzles if the solution goes wrong. And with the random nature of physics, it makes it too frustrating to try and experiment now and then.

And, again, as i said - i can understand why you went with physics only. It both allows the game to feel very unique and interesting, and also kinda makes you need less pre-baked animations (which, apart from time spent on making them, might also look bad in this game anyway). It's just, that given what i wrote above, the random nature makes it more frustrating to try again. If, for example, "reset puzzle" would restart you with full liquid (or at least remember the amount you had at the start of the puzzle or each time you enter the puzzle area if the refil is outside), it might be less frustrating to try again and again. Although, those moments, where you have to guid some fluros in a VERY long way (even though there are not a lot of moments like this) will still be rather unpleasant if they go wrong.

Oh, and while i remember, there's one particular machine puzzle in the mines, where the checkpoint before restarting the machine might be necessary. The one, where both red and blue fluros are in the machine room. I entered it completely missing out the fact, that there was a red one and blew up -_-. So i had to restart the puzzle, as the checkpoint, it seems, was only after the machine is restarted. Never had a similar problem anywhere else in the game.

I'm really happy you still have plans for PSN and XBLA release. I wish the game does get even more refined and gets lots and lots of sales.

P.S. I've been playing with a gamepad and there was only one problem i had with it - the very first door in the Workshop (the one wich opens with water and allows you in the factory area) cannot be opend while standing still and shooting water upwards without upgrading the defaulth nozzle. So i had to jump and shoot. Which, as you might imagine, on gamepad was rather frustrating, as i've upgraded the liquid storage first, instead of the default nozzle. Maybe the first upgrade should always be the default nozzle?

P.P.S Heh, i have exactly 10 hours in it on Steam.
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Old 06-04-2012, 11:07 PM   #5
johnk
 
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Originally Posted by KainKlarden View Post
you have to run all the way back to the machine, hope that you stay long enough on the red liquid release button so fluros form, and not long enough for it to form and instantly somersault and explode and then wait and it it comes aaaaaaaalll the way to that far door to the mines again.
Never had a problem with this one, if he dies you can just drop another seed in the red puddle he leaves behind yes?

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Originally Posted by KainKlarden View Post
you have to find the spot, where the suction works the way you need.
I can see that, never took me more than a moment though? Hard to make it suctionable and fast enough to get into the next pipe. But I've noted it for a bug fix in the next patch.


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Originally Posted by KainKlarden View Post
If, for example, "reset puzzle" would restart you with full liquid (or at least remember the amount you had at the start of the puzzle or each time you enter the puzzle area if the refil is outside), it might be less frustrating to try again and again.
Not a bad idea, I will consider this for the console build.

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Originally Posted by KainKlarden View Post
Although, those moments, where you have to guid some fluros in a VERY long way (even though there are not a lot of moments like this) will still be rather unpleasant if they go wrong.
Should be very few of these, I can only think of a couple. How are things going wrong?

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Oh, and while i remember, there's one particular machine puzzle in the mines, where the checkpoint before restarting the machine might be necessary. The one, where both red and blue fluros are in the machine room. I entered it completely missing out the fact, that there was a red one and blew up -_-. So i had to restart the puzzle, as the checkpoint, it seems, was only after the machine is restarted.
Filed as a bug, should be fixed for the next patch.


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I'm really happy you still have plans for PSN and XBLA release. I wish the game does get even more refined and gets lots and lots of sales.
As do I

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Originally Posted by KainKlarden View Post
P.S. I've been playing with a gamepad and there was only one problem i had with it - the very first door in the Workshop (the one wich opens with water and allows you in the factory area) cannot be opend while standing still and shooting water upwards without upgrading the defaulth nozzle. So i had to jump and shoot. Which, as you might imagine, on gamepad was rather frustrating, as i've upgraded the liquid storage first, instead of the default nozzle. Maybe the first upgrade should always be the default nozzle?
Also a good point, I've filed this and will fix it. Any other specific cases you can remember that were frustrating let me know. It's my goal to remove all the frustrations (as much as can be done without removing physics) for the console builds.

You mentioned a factory bug that prevented you from finishing, which was that?

Thanks for taking the time to point those out, much appreciated.


-John
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Old 06-05-2012, 03:27 AM   #6
KainKlarden
 
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Never had a problem with this one, if he dies you can just drop another seed in the red puddle he leaves behind yes?
If there's enough red liquid in one place, yes, but as "hunting" fluros jump and splash in the air, it might sometimes not be enought to collect. My problem was, that i did push the liquid in the pipe, pumped blue in it, but blew up at the pipe entrance before the dor could be opened -_-. It was a miscalculation on my part, but guiding fluros such a long way is more frustrating the second time around anyway.

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How are things going wrong?
If either you miscalculate something, or something hard to understand by the player happens. And speaking of "hard to understand" - i never really understood the logic in the very first light-loving fluro you guid with a lamp. I could understand when he reacts to it, and when he doesn't. I thought he would react, when he's in the "light circle" around the lamp, but no, he sometomies sees light from far away, but can sometimes stop following if you're rather near.

Another thing i spent too much time on, and felt really stupid when i checked youtube for a solution, was the final orchard room with two cannons. It should seem obvious, but the opening inside the sphere looks just as an art, not an actual opening, and i didn't notice it. The first thing i did, and thought it was the solutuion, was to shoot both cannons in the direction of those piston-plates with red-lights on them. But after the first try, when the liquid just bounced off the sphere around them, i thought there was something else i had to do. I don't know if my first action was the same in many cases, but i thought: if the opening was positioned the way i was shooting both cannons on my first try, the right cannon would've shot liquid inside the sphere, while the left cannon liquid would bounce off. So i would see that there is a wall, but there is also an opening i should somehow get purple liquid in.

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You mentioned a factory bug that prevented you from finishing, which was that?
Yes, you've read it already. Steam machine simply doesn't react on steam. And i don't know why, every other machine in the game worked fine.

Also, there's a really odd thing with a lever in the upgrade-machine - it might not get pulled under the character's weight on the first try. Maybe it's something to do with if you jump from running or if you jump from standing still (maybe the force of the jump from running directs the physics not straight down, but left and down, and when it gets to just "down", the game doesn't recorgnize it as enough force to pull the lever?).

P.S. Loved the unreachable secret in the mines. What was funny with it is that i thought of the solution to it half the game before i got to it (when i first saw the seed needed for the solution in action), but when i got to it, and there was this machine with 3 different liquids under it, i thought of many more complicated solutions with those 3 liquids before realising, that the solution was very simple and elegant. Was that three-liquid machine there to slightly trick you into thinking you need to use it?

P.P.S. Can smallest and invisible purple particles not hurt the player? Or is it needed to constantly remind player of how instable and dangerous purple liquid is? Because i kinda both like it and hate it (as it is always unnoing to die of invisible things).
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Old 06-06-2012, 02:20 PM   #7
johnk
 
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Originally Posted by KainKlarden View Post
If there's enough red liquid in one place, yes, but as "hunting" fluros jump and splash in the air, it might sometimes not be enought to collect. My problem was, that i did push the liquid in the pipe, pumped blue in it, but blew up at the pipe entrance before the dor could be opened -_-. It was a miscalculation on my part, but guiding fluros such a long way is more frustrating the second time around anyway.
Gotcha. Yeah thats a tough one to address, except maybe make the chasers move faster, but that could open a can of worms.


[QUOTE=KainKlarden;31044382]i never really understood the logic in the very first light-loving fluro you guid with a lamp. I could understand when he reacts to it, and when he doesn't. I thought he would react, when he's in the "light circle" around the lamp, but no, he sometomies sees light from far away, but can sometimes stop following if you're rather near.[quote]

He will die if no lit area is reachable to him. Was that not working?

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Originally Posted by KainKlarden View Post
Another thing i spent too much time on, and felt really stupid when i checked youtube for a solution, was the final orchard room with two cannons. It should seem obvious, but the opening inside the sphere looks just as an art, not an actual opening, and i didn't notice it. The first thing i did, and thought it was the solutuion, was to shoot both cannons in the direction of those piston-plates with red-lights on them. But after the first try, when the liquid just bounced off the sphere around them, i thought there was something else i had to do. I don't know if my first action was the same in many cases, but i thought: if the opening was positioned the way i was shooting both cannons on my first try, the right cannon would've shot liquid inside the sphere, while the left cannon liquid would bounce off. So i would see that there is a wall, but there is also an opening i should somehow get purple liquid in.
I'll take another look at this part and see if we can make the art more clear.



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Originally Posted by KainKlarden View Post
read it already. Steam machine simply doesn't react on steam. And i don't know why, every other machine in the game worked fine.
Yep on my list, cant repro it but will see if I can find a solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KainKlarden View Post
Also, there's a really odd thing with a lever in the upgrade-machine - it might not get pulled under the character's weight on the first try. Maybe it's something to do with if you jump from running or if you jump from standing still (maybe the force of the jump from running directs the physics not straight down, but left and down, and when it gets to just "down", the game doesn't recorgnize it as enough force to pull the lever?).
I've noticed this as well. I'll fix for the next patch.

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Originally Posted by KainKlarden View Post
P.S. Loved the unreachable secret in the mines. What was funny with it is that i thought of the solution to it half the game before i got to it (when i first saw the seed needed for the solution in action), but when i got to it, and there was this machine with 3 different liquids under it, i thought of many more complicated solutions with those 3 liquids before realising, that the solution was very simple and elegant. Was that three-liquid machine there to slightly trick you into thinking you need to use it?
Sometimes I'll use puzzle elements as bait for the wrong solution (the water pipe next to the part where you need to make a Lava Fluro in the factory for the first time for example), but this one was meant to be far enough away from the previous puzzle and with camera framing to make the player would consider it separate. Nice job figuring it out early, that's probably the hardest puzzle conceptually wise but one of my favorites.

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P.P.S. Can smallest and invisible purple particles not hurt the player? Or is it needed to constantly remind player of how instable and dangerous purple liquid is? Because i kinda both like it and hate it (as it is always unnoing to die of invisible things).
Perhaps it will give a little flash of red but never be enough to actually kill you? I'll add that in the next patch.

Thanks for the feedback! We're going to do a patch in a couple weeks and I should be able to get all these in.

-John
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Old 06-06-2012, 02:40 PM   #8
KainKlarden
 
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Yeah thats a tough one to address, except maybe make the chasers move faster, but that could open a can of worms.
yeah, i think that would be dangerous. I really don't know how to make this one harder to fail, but still able to fail so there's challenge, and at the same time not frustrating to the player to restart the puzzle. The only thing i was thinking of - maybe if the liquids in the workshop machine flow faster and in bigger quantity, it will help player to at least form a new fluro quickly, if one fails? It might help with the very last puzzle as well, if something goes wrong. Or it may bring some other problems?

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He will die if no lit area is reachable to him. Was that not working?
He just seems to loose interest in the lamp at several times on the way. Like, right before the part, where his way goes slightly down (near the ladders part) he might start reacting as if he doesn't see the light. And the thing is, he starts seeing it if you move farther away from him, closer to the ladders, but might still ignore the light if you're almost on top of him in that area. I didn't get the way he was supposed to "see" the light of the lamp - when he sees it (and runs to it) and when he doesn't (and becomes sad).

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Originally Posted by johnk View Post
Yep on my list, cant repro it but will see if I can find a solution.
Will my savegame help with it in some way? If i send it. I really don't know how exactly i got this problem, game never did anything like this before or after.

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Perhaps it will give a little flash of red but never be enough to actually kill you?
Hm, yeah, i think this way, the liquid will still feel very dangerous, but will help to avoid some very annoying occasional moments.

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Thanks for the feedback! We're going to do a patch in a couple weeks and I should be able to get all these in.
Oh, you're very welcome, i just really want this game to be the best it can be, and criticised some elements just because i really love the game Hope everything goes well with the patch and eventual console versions;
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Old 06-19-2012, 02:33 PM   #9
KainKlarden
 
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So, after reading your temporal solution to the Machine 9 problem, i easily finished that puzzle (did it 20 times already anyway, heh) and also remembered few other things.
First - can you make an in-game option of disabling Vibration for gamepad? I know, it's not necessary, as i can easily press a button on my lovely F510, and when the game gets to consoles, you can easily turn off Vibration function via PS home or XB dashboard. But still, some people like me, who don't like vibration, will probably thank you. Also, those who have controller connected to PC, but playing with the kb+mouse might get scared when they hear strange sounds coming from the direction controller is.
Coming back to the protoplasm and secrets thing - apparently you don't have enough protoplasm to get all upgrades. And given, that some upgrades are, in my opinion, completely pointless anyway, people might waste it on something, they won't need. And it might make the game a tiny bit more hard. Now, i may have just not found use for the upgrades you designed them for, but from what i see, it would've been better to cut some nozzles, and (possibly) making just enough protoplasm count for the ones left. Additional nozzles on the controller present an added annoyance, as you have to scroll through all of them to get to the one you may need. THere's not a lot of them, but it's still a bit of an annoyance.
Anyway, waiting patiently for the patch to test it out.
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Old 06-23-2012, 10:48 AM   #10
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Stangeloop.
You deserve a knighthood for your customer service!
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Old 06-23-2012, 10:53 AM   #11
KainKlarden
 
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Yep, the new patch is beautiful, so far, thanks
Also, the loadings seem to be faster, but it might be due to my slight PC upgrade -_-
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Old 06-23-2012, 11:23 AM   #12
Max Conrad
 
 
 
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The dedication in these responses from the developers pretty much made me buy this game, haha.
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Old 06-23-2012, 12:54 PM   #13
johnk
 
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Thanks guys, just to let you know most of the issues mentioned in this thread have been fixed with yesterday's patch. For controller vibration, you can disable the controller in a config menu, but I'll make a note of adding it to the GUI for later.

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The dedication in these responses from the developers pretty much made me buy this game, haha.
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Old 06-23-2012, 01:00 PM   #14
Death Or Glory
 
 
 
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I had never heard of this game and just came to the forum because it was a daily deal. This thread convinced me to buy it.
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Old 06-23-2012, 01:02 PM   #15
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I had never heard of this game and just came to the forum because it was a daily deal. This thread convinced me to buy it.
The bright-green "81" on the game's store page should have convinced you.
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