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Old 06-19-2012, 03:23 PM   #1
Overclocker_
 
 
 
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The AK-47 and M4A1/M4A3 are not balanced correctly (Now with AUG-A3/SG556)

Getting the nitty-gritty details



AK/M4 in CS:GO currently feel very wrong. The spraying for both guns is the same, the AK got a price increase of $200 and worsened accuracy for standing/crouching stances. Makes the M4 much more attractive for tap shots/accurate shooting.



None of this makes any sense. I went into the weapon script files to see what I could found about spread and accuracy, so here's what the defaults are:



AK-47:



Quote:
// accuracy model parameters
"Spread" 0.60
"InaccuracyCrouch" 4.81
"InaccuracyStand" 6.41
"InaccuracyJump" 0.807
"InaccuracyLand" 0.242
"InaccuracyLadder" 107.61
"InaccuracyFire" 6.87
"InaccuracyMove" 117.06

"RecoveryTimeCrouch" 0.381571
"RecoveryTimeStand" 0.534200


"RecoilAngle" 0
"RecoilAngleVariance" 70
"RecoilMagnitude" 28
"RecoilMagnitudeVariance" 1
"RecoilSeed


M4A3:



Quote:
// accuracy model parameters
"Spread" 0.60
"InaccuracyCrouch" 3.68
"InaccuracyStand" 4.90
"InaccuracyJump" 0.640
"InaccuracyLand" 0.192
"InaccuracyLadder" 85.38
"InaccuracyFire" 6.83
"InaccuracyMove" 92.88

"SpreadAlt" 0.45
"InaccuracyCrouchAlt" 3.68
"InaccuracyStandAlt" 4.90
"InaccuracyJumpAlt" 0.656
"InaccuracyLandAlt" 0.197
"InaccuracyLadderAlt" 87.44
"InaccuracyFireAlt" 6.34
"InaccuracyMoveAlt" 82.00

"RecoveryTimeCrouch" 0.302625
"RecoveryTimeStand" 0.423676

"RecoilSeed" 38965

"RecoilAngle" 0
"RecoilAngleVariance" 70
"RecoilMagnitude" 23
"RecoilMagnitudeVariance" 1


Both weapons have the same base spread, but the M4 has lower inaccuracy values (better accuracy) all around, on the current default values.



Swap Time!



Here is a video of both weapons with their default standing and crouching accuracy swapped & compared, in CS:GO only:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVEUHuJbhro

This video is primarily used to demonstrate what the AK and M4 would play like if their crouch/standing values were swapped. Obviously this is not ideal, as I did not change the recoil values for this comparison, it is just an accuracy test for single/burst/tap shots.



The AK47 should have (based on 1.6 and CS:S) slightly worse accuracy than the M4 in all scenarios, but significantly worse when running or otherwise mobile.
Crouching walking has okay-ish accuracy (in previous titles. In CS:GO, there is no difference between crouching while stationary and crouching while moving, except in recoil decay time), but stationary is where this gun's place is. This is balanced because it suffers highly while on the move, accuracy wise and in movement speed. The AK47 costs $2500 ($2700 in GO) and gives you:

Good accuracy at long range while stationary
The ability to kill someone with a single headshot
Poor accuracy while running, mediocre while walking
Lower movement speed than the M4
Not good and moving and shooting
7.62mm cartridge (more powerful than the M4 round)



The problem is twofold:

AK-47 had a standing and crouching accuracy nerf
a $200 price increase (this would be balanced if it had the same accuracy as previous games, or just a fair bit better accuracy than it has now)

M4A3 got a slight accuracy buff (see previous patch notes that say increased accuracy for all guns, etc)
Price unchanged (A bit imbalanced because it gained a little accuracy, but also nerfed because of the spraying pattern that matches the AK)



Comparison of defaults across current versions of Counter-Strike



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy_H24O2fCc



Perfect Values?



These are suggested changes, and a visual representation of how they stack up to the defaults:



AK-47 Changes

Quote:
// Weapon characteristics:
"Penetration" "2"
"Damage" "36"
"Range" "8192"
"RangeModifier" "0.98"
"Bullets" "1"
"CycleTime" "0.1"
"TimeToIdle" "1.9"
"IdleInterval" "20"
FlinchVelocityModifierLarge 0.40
FlinchVelocityModifierSmall 0.55

// accuracy model parameters
"Spread" 0.60
"InaccuracyCrouch" 4.00
"InaccuracyStand" 5.50

"InaccuracyJump" 0.807
"InaccuracyLand" 0.242
"InaccuracyLadder" 107.61
"InaccuracyFire" 7.00
"InaccuracyMove" 137.06

"RecoveryTimeCrouch" 0.381571
"RecoveryTimeStand" 0.534200


"RecoilAngle" 0
"RecoilAngleVariance" 70
"RecoilMagnitude" 25

"RecoilMagnitudeVariance" 1
"RecoilSeed" 223

Default: http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/x.../akdefault.jpg
Proposed: http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/x...an5606/ak2.jpg




M4A3 Changes

Quote:
// accuracy model parameters
"Spread" 0.60
"InaccuracyCrouch" 3.50
"InaccuracyStand" 4.50

"InaccuracyJump" 0.640
"InaccuracyLand" 0.192
"InaccuracyLadder" 85.38
"InaccuracyFire" 6.83
"InaccuracyMove" 92.88

"SpreadAlt" 0.45
"InaccuracyCrouchAlt" 3.68
"InaccuracyStandAlt" 4.90
"InaccuracyJumpAlt" 0.656
"InaccuracyLandAlt" 0.197
"InaccuracyLadderAlt" 87.44
"InaccuracyFireAlt" 6.34
"InaccuracyMoveAlt" 82.00

"RecoveryTimeCrouch" 0.302625
"RecoveryTimeStand" 0.423676

"RecoilSeed" 38965

"RecoilAngle" 0
"RecoilAngleVariance" 110
"RecoilMagnitude" 18

"RecoilMagnitudeVariance" 1


Default: http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/x.../m4default.jpg
Proposed: http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/x...an5606/m42.jpg



These changes are balanced because while better than their current accuracy, they have adjusted recoil values, and they still perform worse than the AUG/SG556:

AUG A3:



Quote:
// accuracy model parameters
"Spread" 0.60
"InaccuracyCrouch" 2.88
"InaccuracyStand" 3.85
"InaccuracyJump" 0.693
"InaccuracyLand" 0.208
"InaccuracyLadder" 92.34
"InaccuracyFire" 6.16
"InaccuracyMove" 100.45

"SpreadAlt" 0.60
"InaccuracyCrouchAlt" 2.02
"InaccuracyStandAlt" 2.69
"InaccuracyJumpAlt" 0.693
"InaccuracyLandAlt" 0.208
"InaccuracyLadderAlt" 92.34
"InaccuracyFireAlt" 6.16
"InaccuracyMoveAlt" 100.45

"RecoveryTimeCrouch" 0.335520
"RecoveryTimeStand" 0.469727


"RecoilAngle" 0
"RecoilAngleVariance" 70
"RecoilMagnitude" 22
"RecoilMagnitudeVariance" 1
"RecoilSeed" 24204
SG556:



Quote:
// New accuracy model parameters
"Spread" 0.60
"InaccuracyCrouch" 2.84
"InaccuracyStand" 3.78
"InaccuracyJump" 0.627
"InaccuracyLand" 0.188
"InaccuracyLadder" 83.66
"InaccuracyFire" 6.68
"InaccuracyMove" 91.01

"SpreadAlt" 0.60
"InaccuracyCrouchAlt" 1.98
"InaccuracyStandAlt" 2.65
"InaccuracyJumpAlt" 0.627
"InaccuracyLandAlt" 0.188
"InaccuracyLadderAlt" 83.66
"InaccuracyFireAlt" 6.68
"InaccuracyMoveAlt" 78.46

"RecoveryTimeCrouch" 0.309204
"RecoveryTimeStand" 0.432886

"RecoilSeed" 48400

"RecoilAngle" 0
"RecoilAngleVariance" 70
"RecoilMagnitude" 23
"RecoilMagnitudeVariance" 1


Suggested AUG A3/SG556 Changes:

Since I adjust the recoil values of the M4 and AK, the same should be done for the AUG A3 and SG556.



AUG A3:

Quote:
// accuracy model parameters
"Spread" 0.60
"InaccuracyCrouch" 2.88
"InaccuracyStand" 3.85
"InaccuracyJump" 0.693
"InaccuracyLand" 0.208
"InaccuracyLadder" 92.34
"InaccuracyFire" 6.16
"InaccuracyMove" 100.45

"SpreadAlt" 0.60
"InaccuracyCrouchAlt" 2.02
"InaccuracyStandAlt" 2.69
"InaccuracyJumpAlt" 0.693
"InaccuracyLandAlt" 0.208
"InaccuracyLadderAlt" 92.34
"InaccuracyFireAlt" 6.16
"InaccuracyMoveAlt" 100.45

"RecoveryTimeCrouch" 0.335520
"RecoveryTimeStand" 0.469727


"RecoilAngle" 0
"RecoilAngleVariance" 50
"RecoilMagnitude" 26

"RecoilMagnitudeVariance" 1
"RecoilSeed" 24204


SG556:

Quote:
// New accuracy model parameters
"Spread" 0.60
"InaccuracyCrouch" 2.84
"InaccuracyStand" 3.78
"InaccuracyJump" 0.627
"InaccuracyLand" 0.188
"InaccuracyLadder" 83.66
"InaccuracyFire" 6.68
"InaccuracyMove" 91.01

"SpreadAlt" 0.60
"InaccuracyCrouchAlt" 1.98
"InaccuracyStandAlt" 2.65
"InaccuracyJumpAlt" 0.627
"InaccuracyLandAlt" 0.188
"InaccuracyLadderAlt" 83.66
"InaccuracyFireAlt" 6.68
"InaccuracyMoveAlt" 78.46

"RecoveryTimeCrouch" 0.309204
"RecoveryTimeStand" 0.432886

"RecoilSeed" 48400

"RecoilAngle" 0
"RecoilAngleVariance" 60
"RecoilMagnitude" 21

"RecoilMagnitudeVariance" 1


Suggested Changes Comparison Across All Four Weapons in CS:GO:

M4A3: http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/x...06/m4fixed.jpg
AUG-A3: http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/x...6/augfixed.jpg

AK-47: http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/x...06/akfixed.jpg
SG556: http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/x...sg556fixed.jpg

Last edited by Overclocker_: 06-22-2012 at 01:33 AM. Reason: Information/Clarification
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Old 06-19-2012, 03:27 PM   #2
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Good thread
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Old 06-19-2012, 03:33 PM   #3
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I couldn't agree more, should get attention!
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Old 06-19-2012, 03:34 PM   #4
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SpreadAlt? What's the alt? ...silencer?
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Old 06-19-2012, 03:39 PM   #5
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Interesting to say the least. Experimenting time!
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Old 06-19-2012, 03:56 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overclocker_ View Post
I've always felt that the AK in GO is just not the same animal that it was in 1.6 and CS:S. Traditionally, it has been a weapon of great accuracy (when standing and crouching) and power (headshot = kill), but balanced because of it's high recoil when spraying, moving (like all guns) and so on. A three-round burst at chest level would take down most targets.
I agree with your post absolutely, but this is not correct unless you are talking about a somewhat long range where the recoil would bring the bullets towards the head. Great post
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Old 06-19-2012, 04:19 PM   #7
beggi
 
 
 
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Quote:
The M4A1 in previous games is a less powerful weapon, a little less accurate perhaps, but was easy to control
i think your assumption that M4 was traditionally less accurate is wrong. please proof. i cannot judge this by feeling and i strongly doubt you can.




Quote:
Here's the problem: The AK got nerfed pretty hard in GO in terms of accuracy values
in how far is AK nerfed in terms of accuracy? you are oversimplifying really hard. are you talking about single shots like in your video? please proof that AK was more accurate in 1.6/CSS.




Quote:
The M4 is better at single shots or bursting than the AK. Why? It lacks the power to take people out in one headshot.
at the beginning you said that M4 is traditionally less accurate, now you seem to say the opposite. at least that's how i understand this part. at least this statement here is correct. M4 should be better at tapping and bursting and have generally much less recoil.




Quote:
Swap Time!
by swapping the values you're making M4 even more inaccurate, thus distancing it from its traditional role.





Quote:
The AK-47 will need more upward kickback and recoil (like the older games), while the M4A3 needs slightly less upward kickback/recoil and more side-to-side recoil (like the older games)
AK does not need more recoil. the issue is a totally different one, but i wont explain this now. M4 needs much lower recoil though. also, i dont think M4 needs more side-to-side recoil. actually the side-to-side movement is really hectic in GO, hard to control. maybe it gets easier with a lower recoil scale.

Last edited by beggi: 06-19-2012 at 05:05 PM.
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Old 06-19-2012, 04:43 PM   #8
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i honestly don't see anything wrong in that video, maybe lessen the time needed for gun to be accurate tapping, and have the m4's upward spread be a bit less so that its not nearly the same as ak's. other than that i don't see what everyone is fussing about.
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Old 06-19-2012, 04:48 PM   #9
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Think Aug > m4

Valve has this plan in mind.
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Old 06-19-2012, 05:01 PM   #10
beggi
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rieta View Post
i honestly don't see anything wrong in that video, maybe lessen the time needed for gun to be accurate tapping, and have the m4's upward spread be a bit less so that its not nearly the same as ak's. other than that i don't see what everyone is fussing about.
he thinks that AK was too inaccurate at single shots and colt too accurate, it seems. at least he swapped the weapon's accuracy values and as a result has a much more accurate AK, which he showcases in the video.






maybe he's actually right about AK usually having more accuracy on single shots than M4, but this huge wall of text which talks mostly about completely unrelated issues makes his point hard to understand for me -.-

Last edited by beggi: 06-19-2012 at 05:12 PM.
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Old 06-19-2012, 05:11 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beggi View Post
i think your assumption that M4 was traditionally less accurate is wrong. please proof. i cannot judge this by feeling and i strongly doubt you can.


I said "maybe slightly less accurate" - it's not meant to be taken as a fact.



in how far is AK nerfed in terms of accuracy? you are oversimplifying really hard. are you talking about single shots like in your video? please proof that AK was more accurate in 1.6/CSS.


The AK has a consistently hard time getting headshots at long range (when both you and the target are stationary) because of the standing/crouching spread values


the M4 SHOULD be more accurate O.o .. that's the whole point of its balance. so it has better single shots right now? what's the problem?

The M4 being too accurate only leaves the scope on the AUG as an advantage. Have yet to compare the AK and SG552 in GO



at the beginning you said that M4 is traditionally less accurate, now you seem to say the opposite. at least that's how i understand this part. at least this statement here is correct. M4 should be better at tapping and bursting and have generally much less recoil.


Less accurate at range, Should have clarified



by swapping the values you're making M4 even more inaccurate.



I'm making it more in line with older CS titles because it's accuracy is increased in GO compared to them.



AK does not need more recoil. the issue is a totally different one, but i wont explain this now. M4 needs much lower recoil though. also, i dont think M4 needs more side-to-side recoil. actually the side-to-side movement is really hectic in GO, hard to control. maybe it gets easier with a lower recoil scale.

Recoil should be hard to control. The AK has a powerful round and is a powerful gun, but it has high recoil and accuracy. That's how it's supposed to work in game, because that is how it does work in real life. You're not helping your case by saying "
AK does not need more recoil. the issue is a totally different one, but i wont explain this now." - I can't take your word for it, you need to prove it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rieta View Post
i honestly don't see anything wrong in that video, maybe lessen the time needed for gun to be accurate tapping, and have the m4's upward spread be a bit less so that its not nearly the same as ak's. other than that i don't see what everyone is fussing about.
That's because the video is what the guns would play like with swapped standing+crouching accuracy, they're currently the opposite of the video in the real game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven_beef View Post
Think Aug > m4

Valve has this plan in mind.
The AUG currently only has one advantage: The zoom. The M4 is just as accurate.

The AK-47 has poorer accuracy in GO than the SG552 already. The SG552 is more attractive, but swapping the standing+crouching spread values with the M4's one makes the difference smaller, but still fairly substantial.

Maybe everyone is not reading today, but the video is of how the guns would play with swapped standing/crouching accuracy (ie, I went into the weapon scripts and changed the values prior to recording the video). I'm using the FOV command to show you the difference at range. I also showed you what spraying is like at the end - the same, with both guns. Not balanced yet, Valve need to fix that as I don't know how to change the recoil values.

The quoted values in the OP are the stock ones, not switched ones.
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Old 06-19-2012, 08:46 PM   #12
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I always felt like it was unbalanced in previous games. All CT weapons cost more than a terrorist analog, plus CTs also have to buy kits. I always thought it was complete bull that their guns would also be worse. I know an AK is more accurate in reality, but I think it's good that a gun that costs more would also be more accurate, especially when you're expected to buy more as a CT anyway.
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Old 06-19-2012, 09:02 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overclocker_ View Post
Busy making videos of 1.6 and CS:S to prove my point to the other guy now :\
Scout needs something to set it apart from the awp aside from the cost.

Deagle I could care less about. It needs to have a greater disadvantage than the other pistols to give it proper balance.

And to your quote, remember that in css, the accuracy values were changed. http://store.steampowered.com/news/6279/

As a result of this, the ak no longer hits dead accurately.
I tested this out in source yesterday in fact. I was playing with my friend and growing extremely frustrated that I couldn't tap with the Ak and kill people.

Sure enough! In terms of tapping, and bursting accuracy, the order when like this: Aug =/> sg552 > m4 >> ak

The difference was annoyingly high. I never really tested it out, and since about the last 4 months I haven't played much source except for pubbing with friends. But once that update dropped, all my friends said how inaccurate the ak was, but I didn't notice. But a few days ago I started testing it out, and realized they were right.

I miss the days of the ak having 2 accurate shots, and the third was a little high, and the fourth was way high.
M4 was better control.
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Old 06-19-2012, 09:22 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forrestparkay View Post
I always felt like it was unbalanced in previous games. All CT weapons cost more than a terrorist analog, plus CTs also have to buy kits. I always thought it was complete bull that their guns would also be worse. I know an AK is more accurate in reality, but I think it's good that a gun that costs more would also be more accurate, especially when you're expected to buy more as a CT anyway.
That is fair enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beggi View Post
M4 isn't really worse than AK in 1.6 (no idea about CSS). the lower damage output is balanced by the accuracy quite well. depending on how i felt, i often enough would pick up an M4 and trade it for my AK.

M4 was pretty awesome in 1.6, tbh. it of course was completely unlike the AK and played differently, but that's what was so awesome about it.




but OP's suggestions are completely opposite of making the M4 awesome again. he makes M4 even less accurate and still thinks he's right :/. at least the thread is down to 3 stars. go for 2 stars pls.
I'm only making suggestions based on what I've experimented with. So far that is limited to swapping the accuracy for AK/M4 in GO, and that is what this thread is about. It's about "what if it was like this" NOT "it should be made like this permanently or I will not play the game waaah"

I want discussion of ideas to flow from this thread, not ignorance and member-hate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven_beef View Post
Scout needs something to set it apart from the awp aside from the cost.

Deagle I could care less about. It needs to have a greater disadvantage than the other pistols to give it proper balance.

And to your quote, remember that in css, the accuracy values were changed. http://store.steampowered.com/news/6279/

As a result of this, the ak no longer hits dead accurately.
I tested this out in source yesterday in fact. I was playing with my friend and growing extremely frustrated that I couldn't tap with the Ak and kill people.

Sure enough! In terms of tapping, and bursting accuracy, the order when like this: Aug =/> sg552 > m4 >> ak

The difference was annoyingly high. I never really tested it out, and since about the last 4 months I haven't played much source except for pubbing with friends. But once that update dropped, all my friends said how inaccurate the ak was, but I didn't notice. But a few days ago I started testing it out, and realized they were right.

I miss the days of the ak having 2 accurate shots, and the third was a little high, and the fourth was way high.
M4 was better control.
And that is what this thread is about. M4/AK rifle balance. Like the title says, they're not balanced correctly.

Currently making a video comparing the AK/M4 of all game versions in the same spot on dust2.
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Old 06-19-2012, 09:25 PM   #15
beggi
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overclocker_ View Post
I'm only making suggestions based on what I've experimented with. So far that is limited to swapping the accuracy for AK/M4 in GO, and that is what this thread is about. It's about "what if it was like this" NOT "it should be made like this permanently or I will not play the game waaah"

I want discussion of ideas to flow from this thread, not ignorance and member-hate.



And that is what this thread is about. M4/AK rifle balance. Like the title says, they're not balanced correctly.

Currently making a video comparing the AK/M4 of all game versions in the same spot on dust2.
i'm not trying to hate you. please do not misunderstand me. i really wish we could discuss this on skype.



you say they're not balanced correctly, which is true. but trust me, basically the only problem is that M4 has too much recoil. the balance has NOTHING to do with AK single shots being less accurate than M4. it is supposed to be this way.


i can make a 1.6 video, if you want. in fact, i already recorded the demo and was about to make a video out of it, but i thought i'd wait till you show your video <3



do you want to see the demo? you can see that i didnt make any mistakes in my experiment
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