Computer Suddenly Out-Teching You

Diosys · 07-18-2012, 05:08 PM

This is probably my main gripe with ENdless Space. The first 50 turns are so unpredictable when it comes to tech its just maddening. Ive had games where Ill come in with superior tech and beat an Empire out of 2-3 systems, only to have them tech up past me within 5 turns, build a fleet of that tech and push back.

I dont really see the point of playing any type of heavy military oriented play in this game. The computer seems to get significant advantages even on normal to the point where I am wondering, how did he tech to lasers, past lasers and make those ships when he was firing the starting guns at me 3 turns ago?

Could we possibly see some game balance come in sometime in the future, it seems like the computers get a heavy number of bonuses.

DrakenLord · 07-18-2012, 05:13 PM

The problem is that too many people jump up to conclusions and blame the game balance before understanding the mechanics. A number of things could have happened:

- Colonized AI worlds more favorable to research than yours
- Research focus on planets (including significant bonuses from hero and trade)
- Direct technology trade between AIs. If you can swap techs with another AI, why shouldn't they do the same between them?
- Some factions get research points for destroying ships. Early on the bonus makes a big difference. The pilgrims for instance get 25 research point for each command point destroyed (or lost), early on it makes a big difference.

Most likely is that a peaceful, research focused AI traded them techs for strategic or luxury resources.

-

Mordachai · 07-18-2012, 05:18 PM

Personally, it seems to me that because of the counter-intuitive way that Dust and Happiness work, many players are getting left in the proverbial dust because their choices while seemingly correct / advantageous are killing their progress.

Certainly this was my case until I read the forum tutorial that helped me understand how happiness and dust really work, and why building improvements often are more likely tying on anchors instead.

warlordship · 07-18-2012, 06:21 PM

After the first game, every one since then I have rocketted ahead of the AI on the default difficulty, and end up in perpetual war at the end because "they are scared of your score" and "they are upset at your expansion" lowers their favor of me.

Ironically, the most peaceful game I ever had was my first, when I was being out-teched, out-FIDS'd, and out militaried. Every civ was at peace with eachother, and once I was in an alliance with one civ, I used a small tech bribe to get the other 2 in it and the rest of the game went pretty uneventfully.

I don't know if it's because I changed from sophons (a supposedly high research race) to a custom one that had none of the +research attributes, or whether I just learned what to build and what not to after one game. *shrug*

They do seem to have a plus on military. They can, in the start, pump out some damned powerful ships pretty darn fast and never run out of money (from lots of fleets) or food. Of course, most of their planets ARE set to either farms or income whenever I take them over. *shakes head sadly*

Apheirox · 07-19-2012, 06:48 AM

Exactly what DrakenLord said. 'I didn't win, the game is stupid!'

So many of this exact sentiment post here on Steam.

Yes, the AI gets bonuses. No, they are not senselessly big and on Normal you should have absolutely no trouble unless you are making huge beginner mistakes.

If you instead want to learn how to play the game, ask for that. This griping is just useless, sorry.

There is a decent beginner guide here: http://forums.amplitude-studios.com/...-for-Beginners.

There's some stuff in that guide I don't agree with but overall it is very good.

Diosys · 07-19-2012, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apheirox

Exactly what DrakenLord said. 'I didn't win, the game is stupid!'

So many of this exact sentiment post here on Steam.

Yes, the AI gets bonuses. No, they are not senselessly big and on Normal you should have absolutely no trouble unless you are making huge beginner mistakes.

There is a decent beginner guide here: http://forums.amplitude-studios.com/...-for-Beginners.

Ive won plenty of maps already in this game. The problem is this happens every time I play militarily. Its my gripe because I can win a close monument or research victory, but cant turn around a military victory 50 turns in due to some rather oddities happening with the computer.

Ive even seen the elusive diplomatic victory. Suggesting I am ranting because I lost does not help the issue. On top of that, you have agreed that the AI gets a boost, but why on Normal play? WOuldnt Normal play be average or equal with the player?

What I am saying is, working up the difficulty ranks, it seems normal is not porportional to its next difficulty and that the computer AI perks are something id like to see beyond the typical difficulty. If I wasnt on an equal level with the comps, why wouldnt it be called normal?

Ill read the guide, because I love this game as it is. However, take into consideration that as a player who ius trying to play on an equal level with the comps (because Easy is too easy), I dont consider the computers "advantages" to define an equal footing or the Normal difficulty at all.

Apheirox · 07-19-2012, 01:34 PM

So, play on Newbie. Problem solved?

DrakenLord · 07-19-2012, 05:01 PM

Today I started playing Cravers for the first time, going for an expansion victory on the impossible difficulty level. I have to say, for a military grunt society these guys rock some insane research!

The AI on impossible has +80% more FIDS, keep in mind the S is for science, so they get 80% more of it from planets. Yet i seem to be staying on the same level, if not surpassing them on research.

Consider what the cravers have :

- +50 research per CP lost or killed. Early on that's more than the total research of all your planets combined. Destroy a 5/5 CP fleet, and you get 250 research, that's just insane. Use that research to get magnetic field generators early and you're set for a while.
- Because of their focus on massing planets, that early magnetic field generators (it's the +40 research building btw) efficiency is increased since you have one on each planet, the better you are at conquering planets the more research you get.
- Early +25% FIDS means an extra +25% science early from planets, making specialized science planets extra powerful. By the way since you can't focus your corporate heroes on trade, you will be focusing them on research with the +20% dust ability and maximum wits, so that dedicated science system will be just amazing.

Those bonuses are so good that i am fighting wars on two fronts at the same time to capitalize on them. The only thing that tones down this trait a bit is that you can't make peace, thus can't trade technologies or resources, and you can't open trade routes for extra dust and research.

I thought pilgrims were good but Cravers are insane. Pretty fun too, balancing happiness and dust and walking the fine line at the edge of revolt and bankruptcy to maximize your conquest is a pretty fun way to play this game.

-

Diosys · 07-19-2012, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apheirox

So, play on Newbie. Problem solved?

I guess this was to try and start an argument on a forum? How petty.

Apheirox · 07-20-2012, 05:17 AM

Petty is what I would call this thread and the sentiments behind it - complaining about the game, but without any real interest in a solution. I wish you good luck with your games.

shibby191 · 07-20-2012, 06:44 AM

Actually I find it refreshing to see the AI actually respond to my ships and counter them quickly. I do the same thing. In my current game probably around turn 50 or so I started seeing AI ships with Beams on them. I hadn't researched the Beam shield techs at all, just flak since the AI had mostly missiles. So I cancel all research and invest heavily into the military tree to be able to stop Beams, get more powerful missiles and Beams myself. Within 10 or so turn I'm now churning out much more powerful ships and they counter what the AI was doing. Soon I was crushing them again. Eventually the AI countered back with more powerful missiles which caused me to have to counter back with better flak.

Honestly I see this as all good things to the game. I don't see how this is a downside.

Vimp · 07-20-2012, 09:14 AM

If I may chime in here. It is my opinion that none of the reasons that DrakenLord listed are what the OP is witnessing. Based on my own observations playing I encountered what could have been construed as what the OP described.

This is what occurred for me and I believe is also what happened for the OP: The enemy AI had all their fleets in one system and they were all relatively weak compared to my fleets (I think their top fleet in the stack was like 1600mp and mine was something like 3000mp. As such I wiped them all out with just one of my fleets quite easily. But it wasn't long after that they were rebuilding their fleets and they had an average mp of around 3000. If you aren't discerning enough this could appear as though they just teched up by a huge amount in a really short time. But really they had been teched up all along but the weak fleets you had been fighting were simply fleets made when their tech was lower and they didn't bother to retrofit them with upgraded tech.

I think (assuming my theory is correct) this brings up a valid issue regarding how the AI uses the retrofit option. Perhaps they don't use it at all? Or maybe the variables that trigger them to use it aren't balanced properly.

Diosys · 07-21-2012, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apheirox

Petty is what I would call this thread and the sentiments behind it - complaining about the game, but without any real interest in a solution. I wish you good luck with your games.

It would be much easier to have a conversation about the gameplay balance, of you did not take the time to go around and insult people off the bat. I am not saying that having the computer jump in technology is wrong. What I am saying is on the current difficulty, it seems unfair. If I was playing above the normal difficulty I would have simply expected this, as the computer would need some type of advantage beyond the "same level" sort of strategy. The problem is, playing on normal, giving the computer what seems to be a significant buff to their tech seems wrong.

I fully accept that this would and should be common place on the higher difficulties. However, progressing up the ladder, this seems to be a large jump in difficulty. My solution would be to bring the game difficulty in line with the expected play type for that difficulty. Where NORMAL would be your "level playing field" where the computer plays at your level. Easy and below would give the player significant perks and above normal would give the computer significant perks.

As recently having won an expansion play, I am not too worried about the long game, as the computer is absolutely terrible at it. However, my concern stems in the short game which by the normal difficulty seems highly favoured for the comps. If you dont agree with my analysis, thats fine, but you started this with a snarky attitude and brought non-constructive and ♥♥♥♥ty comments because you dont like others critiquing the game you apparently enjoy.

As well, I would say its conceivable that the computers could have already teched up. However, usually I am able to take 2-3 systems before seeing a sudden jump in tech. Its not a huge issue, but the incrementals in difficulty can be important in the game as new players to a TBS can be suddenly shocked by such drastic difficulty increases.

Aranarth · 07-21-2012, 07:03 PM

It could also be that they had an older fleet that was built with early tech, but then reinforced with a more recently built fleet that has the current level of tech.

So they may not have had a quick jump in tech, but rather you just came across an obsolete fleet that happened to survive for a long time.

warlordship · 07-21-2012, 09:19 PM

I do notice that they seem to either get bonuses we don't or cheat. I started a 8 player game and vowed to expand fast. I researched wormhole travel maybe as my 6th research, took me about 10 turns of dedicated research. as soon as I got it, I sent a scout across my one wormhole gate and found... that an AI was already out in the middle and had settled on TWO worlds before I could even get a scout out.

07-18-2012, 05:08 PM	#1
Diosys Join Date: Jul 2012 Reputation: 0 Posts: 9	Computer Suddenly Out-Teching You This is probably my main gripe with ENdless Space. The first 50 turns are so unpredictable when it comes to tech its just maddening. Ive had games where Ill come in with superior tech and beat an Empire out of 2-3 systems, only to have them tech up past me within 5 turns, build a fleet of that tech and push back. I dont really see the point of playing any type of heavy military oriented play in this game. The computer seems to get significant advantages even on normal to the point where I am wondering, how did he tech to lasers, past lasers and make those ships when he was firing the starting guns at me 3 turns ago? Could we possibly see some game balance come in sometime in the future, it seems like the computers get a heavy number of bonuses.

07-18-2012, 05:13 PM	#2
DrakenLord Join Date: Jun 2009 Reputation: 34 Posts: 1,347	The problem is that too many people jump up to conclusions and blame the game balance before understanding the mechanics. A number of things could have happened: - Colonized AI worlds more favorable to research than yours - Research focus on planets (including significant bonuses from hero and trade) - Direct technology trade between AIs. If you can swap techs with another AI, why shouldn't they do the same between them? - Some factions get research points for destroying ships. Early on the bonus makes a big difference. The pilgrims for instance get 25 research point for each command point destroyed (or lost), early on it makes a big difference. Most likely is that a peaceful, research focused AI traded them techs for strategic or luxury resources. - Last edited by DrakenLord: 07-18-2012 at 05:16 PM.

07-19-2012, 05:01 PM	#8
DrakenLord Join Date: Jun 2009 Reputation: 34 Posts: 1,347	Today I started playing Cravers for the first time, going for an expansion victory on the impossible difficulty level. I have to say, for a military grunt society these guys rock some insane research! The AI on impossible has +80% more FIDS, keep in mind the S is for science, so they get 80% more of it from planets. Yet i seem to be staying on the same level, if not surpassing them on research. Consider what the cravers have : - +50 research per CP lost or killed. Early on that's more than the total research of all your planets combined. Destroy a 5/5 CP fleet, and you get 250 research, that's just insane. Use that research to get magnetic field generators early and you're set for a while. - Because of their focus on massing planets, that early magnetic field generators (it's the +40 research building btw) efficiency is increased since you have one on each planet, the better you are at conquering planets the more research you get. - Early +25% FIDS means an extra +25% science early from planets, making specialized science planets extra powerful. By the way since you can't focus your corporate heroes on trade, you will be focusing them on research with the +20% dust ability and maximum wits, so that dedicated science system will be just amazing. Those bonuses are so good that i am fighting wars on two fronts at the same time to capitalize on them. The only thing that tones down this trait a bit is that you can't make peace, thus can't trade technologies or resources, and you can't open trade routes for extra dust and research. I thought pilgrims were good but Cravers are insane. Pretty fun too, balancing happiness and dust and walking the fine line at the edge of revolt and bankruptcy to maximize your conquest is a pretty fun way to play this game. - Last edited by DrakenLord: 07-19-2012 at 05:04 PM.

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07-18-2012, 05:18 PM	#3
Mordachai Join Date: Jan 2011 Reputation: 9 Posts: 80	Personally, it seems to me that because of the counter-intuitive way that Dust and Happiness work, many players are getting left in the proverbial dust because their choices while seemingly correct / advantageous are killing their progress. Certainly this was my case until I read the forum tutorial that helped me understand how happiness and dust really work, and why building improvements often are more likely tying on anchors instead.

07-18-2012, 06:21 PM	#4
warlordship Join Date: Jul 2011 Reputation: 6 Posts: 177	After the first game, every one since then I have rocketted ahead of the AI on the default difficulty, and end up in perpetual war at the end because "they are scared of your score" and "they are upset at your expansion" lowers their favor of me. Ironically, the most peaceful game I ever had was my first, when I was being out-teched, out-FIDS'd, and out militaried. Every civ was at peace with eachother, and once I was in an alliance with one civ, I used a small tech bribe to get the other 2 in it and the rest of the game went pretty uneventfully. I don't know if it's because I changed from sophons (a supposedly high research race) to a custom one that had none of the +research attributes, or whether I just learned what to build and what not to after one game. shrug They do seem to have a plus on military. They can, in the start, pump out some damned powerful ships pretty darn fast and never run out of money (from lots of fleets) or food. Of course, most of their planets ARE set to either farms or income whenever I take them over. shakes head sadly

07-19-2012, 06:48 AM	#5
Apheirox Join Date: Oct 2009 Reputation: 172 Posts: 1,056	Exactly what DrakenLord said. 'I didn't win, the game is stupid!' So many of this exact sentiment post here on Steam. Yes, the AI gets bonuses. No, they are not senselessly big and on Normal you should have absolutely no trouble unless you are making huge beginner mistakes. If you instead want to learn how to play the game, ask for that. This griping is just useless, sorry. There is a decent beginner guide here: http://forums.amplitude-studios.com/...-for-Beginners. There's some stuff in that guide I don't agree with but overall it is very good.

07-19-2012, 01:34 PM	#7
Apheirox Join Date: Oct 2009 Reputation: 172 Posts: 1,056	So, play on Newbie. Problem solved?

07-20-2012, 05:17 AM	#10
Apheirox Join Date: Oct 2009 Reputation: 172 Posts: 1,056	Petty is what I would call this thread and the sentiments behind it - complaining about the game, but without any real interest in a solution. I wish you good luck with your games.

07-20-2012, 06:44 AM	#11
shibby191 Join Date: Apr 2011 Reputation: 21 Posts: 159	Actually I find it refreshing to see the AI actually respond to my ships and counter them quickly. I do the same thing. In my current game probably around turn 50 or so I started seeing AI ships with Beams on them. I hadn't researched the Beam shield techs at all, just flak since the AI had mostly missiles. So I cancel all research and invest heavily into the military tree to be able to stop Beams, get more powerful missiles and Beams myself. Within 10 or so turn I'm now churning out much more powerful ships and they counter what the AI was doing. Soon I was crushing them again. Eventually the AI countered back with more powerful missiles which caused me to have to counter back with better flak. Honestly I see this as all good things to the game. I don't see how this is a downside.

07-20-2012, 09:14 AM	#12
Vimp Join Date: Sep 2010 Reputation: 5 Posts: 107	If I may chime in here. It is my opinion that none of the reasons that DrakenLord listed are what the OP is witnessing. Based on my own observations playing I encountered what could have been construed as what the OP described. This is what occurred for me and I believe is also what happened for the OP: The enemy AI had all their fleets in one system and they were all relatively weak compared to my fleets (I think their top fleet in the stack was like 1600mp and mine was something like 3000mp. As such I wiped them all out with just one of my fleets quite easily. But it wasn't long after that they were rebuilding their fleets and they had an average mp of around 3000. If you aren't discerning enough this could appear as though they just teched up by a huge amount in a really short time. But really they had been teched up all along but the weak fleets you had been fighting were simply fleets made when their tech was lower and they didn't bother to retrofit them with upgraded tech. I think (assuming my theory is correct) this brings up a valid issue regarding how the AI uses the retrofit option. Perhaps they don't use it at all? Or maybe the variables that trigger them to use it aren't balanced properly.

07-21-2012, 07:03 PM	#14
Aranarth Join Date: Apr 2010 Reputation: 0 Posts: 39	It could also be that they had an older fleet that was built with early tech, but then reinforced with a more recently built fleet that has the current level of tech. So they may not have had a quick jump in tech, but rather you just came across an obsolete fleet that happened to survive for a long time.

07-21-2012, 09:19 PM	#15
warlordship Join Date: Jul 2011 Reputation: 6 Posts: 177	I do notice that they seem to either get bonuses we don't or cheat. I started a 8 player game and vowed to expand fast. I researched wormhole travel maybe as my 6th research, took me about 10 turns of dedicated research. as soon as I got it, I sent a scout across my one wormhole gate and found... that an AI was already out in the middle and had settled on TWO worlds before I could even get a scout out.