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Old 01-04-2014, 06:14 AM   #1
Incarnati0n
 
 
 
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Why the BFB is currently broken

I haven't been on SPUF for a while, and while I was lurking just now I noticed that the BFB controversy has settled down. This bothers me, as I think the BFB is still very much broken in its current form. I'm going to try and explain why I think so.

First of all, two of its downsides - namely limited jumping and having to charge, are completely void. While pre-buff BFB made you start at a teethclenchingly low speed, the current BFB starts off faster than Medic, more than fast enough to function at. On top of that, the charge is incredibly fast; you only need a 100 damage to be fully charged, so a few lousy potshots and you're up to regular speed, a few more and you're fully charged. Also because of this, the jumping downside does not matter to the point where it just as well could be removed entirely; you only lose a quarter of your bar for a double jump, single jumps are completely free. You can do three double jumps without doing any damage inbetween and still be around scout stock speed. What's more, the bar, again, charges so fast, that you only have to do a pitiful 25 damage per double jump to maintain max speed. You can literally jump exactly as much as you would normally would as Scout and would never fall under stock scout speed.

I even made a cute little graph to make my point. As you can see, losing 75% of your charge still leaves you a little above stock scout speed, and even at 0 charge you are much faster than any other class. Startup speed, the damage needed and the jump penalty are completely neglectible.

Next is the one downside it does have left; the smaller clip size. You now have only ~400 damage to distribute instead of ~600 before having to run off and reload. If you've read my posts before you know I'm very against perfect accuracy models, but I hopy you can agree that 400 damage should be more than enough to finish off anything bar a Heavy without much trouble even when counting in missed and non-meatshot shots. So there's the downside; you get weaker against heavies.

The upsides however, completely nullify that one downside. I won't bang on about the more obvious ones, ergo being harder to hit, more mobility etc, but I do want to go deeper into what the BFB does to the Scout vs Scout matchup, as this is exactly what makes the BFB so horribly broken right now.

The Scout is an assassin class, a hit-and-run-class. You go in, spread your 600 points of love around, probably take some hits and then bail to reload and restock on health. As long as you don't run head-first into a sentry, the Scout has no counters because of this; he can engage battle whenever he wants and disengage whenever he wants. This is balanced by opposing Scouts; they are just as fast as you are and thus punish you for reckless attacks. With the BFB however, this becomes impossible; a Scout with any other weapon than the BFB can not chase and punish an attacking BFB scout. In reverse, it just became much, much easier for the BFB scout to chase and kill non-BFB scouts. Ergo, if one Scout on a server goes BFB, every other Scout has to do so as well or lose the big upside of being scout; namely being able to disengage any fight at will. This is the biggest problem with the BFB, similar to the Sniper's current Danger shield; if you want to keep functioning as your class, you are forced to equip it as soon as one other player on the server equips it.

Also, as a final note, notice how the BFBs upsides decrease its one downside; being able to retreat more easily and attack again faster makes having to reload earlier a much smaller problem.
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Old 01-04-2014, 08:18 AM   #2
MasterKade123
 
 
 
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Yeah, I thought a damage penalty was okay...


Also, what about the Cola? I'm surprised no one really paid attention to that one.
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Old 01-04-2014, 08:33 AM   #3
123PistolPete
 
 
 
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Yeah BFB is still pretty broken. Everything pales in comparison to current sc though...
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Old 01-04-2014, 08:54 AM   #4
Ten_Tacles
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterKade123 View Post
Yeah, I thought a damage penalty was okay...


Also, what about the Cola? I'm surprised no one really paid attention to that one.
I would rather have a reduced minimum speed (but not to the extent of pre buff BFB, more like spy, etc or medic speed), increased damage needed for full charge, maybe 200 or even 300 instead of just 100 or reduction of charge on the normal jump, not just on the double jump.
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Old 01-04-2014, 09:01 AM   #5
Incarnati0n
 
 
 
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I haven't had much time to try out the new CaC yet, but I can say the buff was unnecessary

What I'd like to see for the BFB btw:

-starting speed gets reduced to standard aka "pyro speed"
-double jumping now costs 50% of charge
-some damage nerf to give it slightly less picking power
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Old 01-04-2014, 09:08 AM   #6
hiasiuro
 
 
 
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It's still less broken than stickies or sentries and most other Engineer unlocks. I agree that the weapon's stats are a bit much now, but I still don't consider it overpowered, although it really depends on the situation.

So I find that the BFB is still easily countered by sentries and overhealed people. The only situation where the BFB is good, is when there are less than 20 people on the server, on 5cp/koth maps, and some areas of bigger Payload maps. Of course that goes for the entire Scout class, basically he's good when there are no Engineers, and he sucks when there are Engineers. Same with Medics, Scout has a hard time if the enemies are all overhealed, if not, he has the time of his life.

All it needs right now is a minor nerf, which would be to make double jumping cost 50% of your boost, and filling up the boost meter should require that you do 160 damage, for example. Either that, or the maximum achievable speed should be somewhat reduced. But only a minor nerf, otherwise it will just suck again really...
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Old 01-04-2014, 09:47 PM   #7
Utilt
 
 
 
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BFB has the lowest staying power of any Scout primary. You get really damn good at hit and run, but that's what you're limited to using BFB. You can't take out 2 enemies at once, you can basically only go in, shoot at 1, and go out. Considering Scout is about all DPS, and really every primary except BFB gives some sort of DPS related Focus (Scatter is reliable, FaN is raw power, Shortstop is ranged DPS, Soda Popper is burst), you lose a large portion of effectiveness using the BFB.

You gain mobility for a drop in damage. Soda Popper gives you Mobility for negligible drop in Damage. Winger gives you mobility WITHOUT dropping your Primary's damage. So does Atomizer.

BFB really is just a solid sidegrade, that's it. I wouldn't care if the base speed went down to -20% because it's still be a sidegrade and it would make less people about the weapon.
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Old 01-05-2014, 03:15 AM   #8
Incarnati0n
 
 
 
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Having to reload more often is almost completely neglected by being able to engage and disengage much faster. Go in, get a kill, go out, reload and repeat in a matter of 3 seconds. In my own experience, going for multiple enemies with one Scatter clip is very rare as long as you're not chasing damaged enemies (which the BFB excells at)
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Old 01-05-2014, 06:17 PM   #9
Mick_Sykes
 
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Would it make sense if they just turn down the damage around 14%, so it matches that of the stock multi-class shotgun and also make double-jumping take a third of the full boost instead of a quarter?
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Old 01-06-2014, 02:01 AM   #10
Incarnati0n
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick_Sykes View Post
Would it make sense if they just turn down the damage around 14%, so it matches that of the stock multi-class shotgun and also make double-jumping take a third of the full boost instead of a quarter?
That would be good, athough I'd personally prefer half the charge taken on jump. And the starting speed should be lowered a bit (but not below demo speed). The main thing now mostly is that it needs an actual downside to balance out countering non-BFB scouts
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Old 01-06-2014, 08:17 AM   #11
Assyrianic
 
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Don't touch my BFB, I know it's not balanced but it's fun.

if you guys want balance, go play Fortress Forever.

Slighty Off-Topic: Shouldn't the BFB do shotgun damage (aka maximum 90) since it only has one barrel compared to every other scout primary (2 barrels for scatter, FaN, soda popper; 4 for shortstop)
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Old 01-06-2014, 10:27 AM   #12
hiasiuro
 
 
 
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In any case we don't need any damage nerfs to this weapon, that will make it really ineffective with a clip of 4.
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Old 01-06-2014, 10:46 AM   #13
Incarnati0n
 
 
 
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With 90 damage a shot and 4 clips, it would still be fairly easy to pick anything sub-soldier. And with a Pistol even a fully healed soldier shouldn't be that much of an issue. I think 90 damage on a meatshot would be fine.

EDIT: I would actually even be okay with just giving it less pellets. That way you would still approximately do an equal amount of damage on a non-meatshot, but at the very very max you will never hit higher than 90.
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Old 01-06-2014, 01:47 PM   #14
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I find the smaller clip to still be pretty painful, when I was trying out the new BFB there were many times where I felt I failed to get a kill because I ran out of shots early. And I was never comfortable jumping as aggressively as I normally would, but that may have been psychological.

I understand your point about scout versus scout, but I think you overstate the importance of chasing. Usually it is sufficient to make enemy scouts run away, chasing an enemy scout for the kill can even be a distraction from more important goals. The scout is so fragile too that even with the BFB speed, a scout can die before he even has the chance to run.

I do think the current charge meter doesn't feel right. It's too easy and it charges so fast that it basically feels like there are only two modes: Spawn, and max speed. I think it should take a lot more damage to charge, like 300 or 400. Then the speed would really feel earned, and the double jump penalty would feel like a penalty. Reducing the starting speed to base or medic speed would also make sense.

I would not touch the damage, like I said above it already feels low to me, and I would not add a penalty to the first jump, the first jump is needed to effectively navigate basic terrain like a normal class.

Last edited by Kered13: 01-06-2014 at 01:50 PM.
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Old 01-06-2014, 02:20 PM   #15
Incarnati0n
 
 
 
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I actually like how easily it is charged; the only reason you have to charge at all is because starting at max speed would be broken during rollouts, attacking enemy medics before they even reach mid is broken even in pub. That's really the only reason the charge mechanic exists in the first place if you ask me
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