Go Back   Steam Users' Forums > Steam Game Discussions > D - G > Doom series

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-17-2007, 12:02 PM   #31
Da_maniaC
 
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Reputation: 0
Posts: 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by RabidZombie View Post
I'd like to point out a few things. One, is that both ZDaemon and Skulltag's netcode is based on csDoom's netcode, which is based on QuakeWorlds. Although ZDaemon has shown slightly superior netcode, Skulltag has recently been catching up, and may eventually overtake. (Also, I'd hardly call QuakeWorld modern! )
The big difference is, with the ZDaemon client having at least 5 rewrites and the last one adding significant netcode changes there are now methods in effect which you will find when looking at modern day games.
Unlagged interpolation and packtloss checks that resend server information to keep the gaming experience as nice as possible. Even with 200 ping movement nowadays is no problem which is quite the difference compared to Quakeworld/CSDoom/ZDoom. With Skulltag i wouldnt know, since i do not track the port anymore since Carn left. (I wouldn't even know if he would possible be back with the project, but thats ok).

If Skulltag is making new developments regarding this field then thats very nice as with any 'competition' (as far as competition for freelance projects can go) ZDaemon is not just sitting there with the current already nicely working netcode either. In addition to new features regarding the netcode there are quite some developers involved from other modern games next to the main coder which thought of innovative solutions / suggestions such as projectile interpolation in comparison to lag and packetloss as addition to the already optimised netcode, which will be in the v1.09 release.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RabidZombie View Post
Also, last time I checked, ZDaemon was based of ZDoom. Infact, last time I checked, the physics and weapon damage are exactly the same in Zdaemon, Skulltag, Zdoom and GZdoom. The only added thing to Skulltag are easily disabled runes, new powerups and new weapons. If one wants authentic Doom multiplayer then one can easily then resort to csDoom. ZDaemon is really the middlle ground betweem csDoom and Skulltag. Not having the most advanced features, but still being a slight improvement over the original. Some people would prefer it, but the only reason why it is the most popular is because of its popularity. People are like sheep, they follow each other. ZDaemon grew with popularity, and thus caused more people to migrate to it.
Well then i do not know when the last time was you checked. As of ZDaemon v1.06 there have been several changes to the engine on core level.
Another developer from the old school doom community (and #nightmare2) created a package that could be used in accordance with a running ZDaemon game server redist allowing gameplay to be as authentic as possible. He created the package because Zdoom and any port based off of it was way off in terms of doom gameplay with altered physics and a different damage calculation which was considered better by Randy Heit (the author of ZDoom) but unknowningly changed the gameplay just to name a few examples.
This addition package was favoured so much by the community it set a standard for today's Doom2.exe gaming via TCP/IP protocol and so the package got integrated.
The newer versions of ZDaemon that contained this package (any version does nowadays) featured changes regarding game physics, z-height and actor handling, super shotgun damage calculation, player spawning, pickup ranges and the doom2.exe sound curve.
All of these features being exactly in accordance with doom2.exe except for the sound curve which for some reason was still copyrighted by IDGames.
This feature was therefore looked upon by several developers and people from #nightmare2 to be created as authentic as possible.
It is this new standard in doom2.exe gaming that has drawn people across to play ZDaemon and make the port grow in popularity and be anywhere but the 'middlegrounds'.

Now, another important and essential difference between ZDaemon and Skulltag is that next to the very authentic gameplay ZDaemon has chosen not to make mandatory additions to the port except for server variables.
Zdaemon is based of an older ZDoom codebase (1.23b) however new developments have been added and code has been rewritten a couple of times to even improve engine performance and features of which the originals are still present in the latest build of ZDoom today.
When i say we did not make any mandatory changes it is, because we want ZDaemon to be seen exactly the way 'more-then-average-understanding-community-members' see the project. Doom2.exe with a decent modern day netcode.
Sure, we have new gamemodes such as CTF and sound, weapon or skin patches such as found in Skulltag. However these are brought fully outside the port and added just as any other doom pwad that would have custom maps etc.
One of the few things ZDaemon lacks in however is ACS scripting support, which is also in the works for the upcoming v1.09. (People want it, but i am sure that as soon as its there they will try a handfull of wads and leave it alone while it takes hours of engineering to get ACS scripting to work in a Server/Client enviroment hence why it was never rushed).

Quote:
Originally Posted by RabidZombie View Post
As for ZDaemon and bans, it is cirtainly true. Infact, one can be completely banned from the game and everything to do with it. If one finds themselves banned, they can not go to the forum, join IRC, even play in any servers.
The reason for this is very, very simple. Zdaemon is not only a gaming engine, it has a stand alone launcher with a built in IRC client too.
All of these services cost money to maintain yet we do not, nor do we want to charge anyone for enjoying games with our port.
Therefore if there is a serious 'perpetrator' of our freely offered service we do not want him to enjoy it anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RabidZombie View Post
Not only have the forcefully removed other team members by perma-banning them from everything for team disagreements
The only reason a certain bunch of old staff members has been banned in the past was because they thought they could overtake the entire project as a group with their naïve ideas and values, not even considering how much they meant to the project in comparison to others.
We have a very simple policy in that regard and as long as people do not start a personal or even a physical (DDOS attacks) offensive we will act reasonable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RabidZombie View Post
a team member even released a Trojan under the name of ZDaemon.
I am not going to try and offend people here, but after reading your post a couple of times i do have to note that you try very hard to shed a negative view on a subject (in this case ZDaemon) without letting everyone else know the whole truth. Please note that this is the only reason i even bother to clear a few things up.

Zdaemon at one point became so popular that a person wrote an aimbot and wallhack for the port. (This yet again tells you something about popularity but that aside...)
So at one point, one ZDaemon team member got mad at the fact and located the origin of this cheat to mirror it with a self adapted version of the cheat which in its turn deleted a few ZDaemon files of the users pc at the moment it was fired up and the user thought he was knowingly going to use the cheat. (Preventing the cheat from working and to give a warning to the user for trying to use the cheat).
This action was not endorsed nor supported by anyone of the ZDaemon team and this team member acted alone in his case and never proclaimed to do it for the entire team either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RabidZombie View Post
The ZDaemon staff are unbearable as well.
Notice how i said 'we' a lot in this entire message?
Should i start feeling offended?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RabidZombie View Post
Granted, it is my opinion that the community is unbearable, and I will remove that now. However, everything else I stated is fact.
You have every right to form your own opinion about the ZDaemon community and project. This post however, certainly proves a lot of things wrong which are considered by you as facts.
Everyone else will be able to see that now i hope rather then to see a shortsighted and negative view that was trying to be shed onto the project in this thread. Have a nice day.

Last edited by Da_maniaC: 08-18-2007 at 05:39 AM.
Da_maniaC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2007, 09:45 PM   #32
Quake Master
 
Guest
Posts: n/a
id should have just put Doom 95 series on steam.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2007, 10:48 PM   #33
ATimson
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Reputation: 28
Posts: 1,536
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quake Master View Post
id should have just put Doom 95 series on steam.
Doom 95 doesn't work right under WinNT-based versions of Windows; namely, mouse support is broken, as is windowed mode.
ATimson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2007, 02:54 AM   #34
Da_maniaC
 
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Reputation: 0
Posts: 183
Next to that Doom95 does not have a way to set up TCP/IP connections either.

You should just think of doom as a game contents package which you buy off STEAM.
The engine is not what you pay for, but the .wads containing the graphics, maps, music etc etc are.

The engine you choose to play doom with wether thats doom2.exe, zdoom or zdaemon is all up to you depending on how you want your gaming experience to be or what you are looking for.

Da_maniaC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2007, 10:31 AM   #35
eowyncarter
 
Guest
Posts: n/a
Well, doom is probably the game i played the most.
Would probably feels weird to have something that look like doom but isn't doom.
vertical mouse look on doom ?? just look so out of place. So my preferences would go the source port that looks like the real game.

Still, i would gladdy takes the chance to play the multiplayer doom again
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2007, 05:29 AM   #36
Da_maniaC
 
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Reputation: 0
Posts: 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by eowyncarter View Post
Well, doom is probably the game i played the most.
Would probably feels weird to have something that look like doom but isn't doom.
vertical mouse look on doom ?? just look so out of place. So my preferences would go the source port that looks like the real game.

Still, i would gladdy takes the chance to play the multiplayer doom again
Don't know if you have read my post above.
But if you look at ZDaemon for example.
The developers put in server settings that can make the game look as close to doom as possible.
That means when you look at the ZDaemon server list you will find both normal and Old School servers. As where the old school server have no free mouselook, no jumping, vanilla doom physics etc. etc.
Da_maniaC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2007, 05:42 AM   #37
eowyncarter
 
Guest
Posts: n/a
Hey :)

i'll have a look at this ,maybe.

For now, "i have a billing info refused", so i'm afraid steam is a no go for me though said billing info are perfectly correct !
Asked the support, but if the don't provide me with an solution fast, i'll just give up.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2007, 07:31 AM   #38
eowyncarter
 
Guest
Posts: n/a
Thumbs up

Support did solve my problem. They can be fast, when you're in a "I wanna give you my money" situation

Did a bit a play with Zdaemon. That was fun. Ah, sweet sweet memories

Though it's a bit buggy.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2007, 02:01 PM   #39
Da_maniaC
 
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Reputation: 0
Posts: 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by eowyncarter View Post
Though it's a bit buggy.
That depends completely on what you played and how you played it.
For any weird issues you can find information on the ZDaemon forums itself ofcourse.
If you are talking about any jittering....that can happen with any online game. Its called lag.
Da_maniaC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2007, 08:26 AM   #40
RabidZombie
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Reputation: 66
Posts: 1,195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Da_maniaC View Post
The big difference is, with the ZDaemon client having at least 5 rewrites and the last one adding significant netcode changes there are now methods in effect which you will find when looking at modern day games.
I wouldn't know, since it is closed Source. Which I hate about Skulltag as well.

Quote:
Unlagged interpolation and packtloss checks that resend server information to keep the gaming experience as nice as possible. Even with 200 ping movement nowadays is no problem which is quite the difference compared to Quakeworld/CSDoom/ZDoom. With Skulltag i wouldnt know, since i do not track the port anymore since Carn left. (I wouldn't even know if he would possible be back with the project, but thats ok).
It shows I haven't played the unmodified Quakeworld in a while. I hadn't realised it was so primative compared to today's standards. Still, both Skulltag and ZDaemon are greatly improved over it anyway. And comparing correctly possible when both ports are illegally closed source.

Quote:
Well then i do not know when the last time was you checked. As of ZDaemon v1.06 there have been several changes to the engine on core level.
Another developer from the old school doom community (and #nightmare2) created a package that could be used in accordance with a running ZDaemon game server redist allowing gameplay to be as authentic as possible. He created the package because Zdoom and any port based off of it was way off in terms of doom gameplay with altered physics and a different damage calculation which was considered better by Randy Heit (the author of ZDoom) but unknowningly changed the gameplay just to name a few examples.
I checked the ZDoom change log and I can't find any references to deliberately changing any weapon physics for the better. Nor have a ever heard it mentions before this day. In fact, Randy has made several changes to move ZDoom's behavior closer to Doom's, such as calculating the damage radius as a square not circle (which was a mistake).Although, I don't really see how small changes can make such a large difference anyway. I haven't been able to notice any major changes between Doom's multiplayer and ZDoom's with the exceptions of genuine improvements such as players being over to pass over each other.

Quote:
Now, another important and essential difference between ZDaemon and Skulltag is that next to the very authentic gameplay ZDaemon has chosen not to make mandatory additions to the port except for server variables.
Zdaemon is based of an older ZDoom codebase (1.23b) however new developments have been added and code has been rewritten a couple of times to even improve engine performance and features of which the originals are still present in the latest build of ZDoom today.
When i say we did not make any mandatory changes it is, because we want ZDaemon to be seen exactly the way 'more-then-average-understanding-community-members' see the project. Doom2.exe with a decent modern day netcode.
Sure, we have new gamemodes such as CTF and sound, weapon or skin patches such as found in Skulltag. However these are brought fully outside the port and added just as any other doom pwad that would have custom maps etc.
One of the few things ZDaemon lacks in however is ACS scripting support, which is also in the works for the upcoming v1.09. (People want it, but i am sure that as soon as its there they will try a handfull of wads and leave it alone while it takes hours of engineering to get ACS scripting to work in a Server/Client enviroment hence why it was never rushed).
That's nice to hear.



Quote:
The reason for this is very, very simple. Zdaemon is not only a gaming engine, it has a stand alone launcher with a built in IRC client too.
All of these services cost money to maintain yet we do not, nor do we want to charge anyone for enjoying games with our port.
Therefore if there is a serious 'perpetrator' of our freely offered service we do not want him to enjoy it anymore.
So disagreements among team members permit them being banned from even playing what they once contributed to?

Quote:
I am not going to try and offend people here, but after reading your post a couple of times i do have to note that you try very hard to shed a negative view on a subject (in this case ZDaemon) without letting everyone else know the whole truth. Please note that this is the only reason i even bother to clear a few things up.

Zdaemon at one point became so popular that a person wrote an aimbot and wallhack for the port. (This yet again tells you something about popularity but that aside...)
So at one point, one ZDaemon team member got mad at the fact and located the origin of this cheat to mirror it with a self adapted version of the cheat which in its turn deleted a few ZDaemon files of the users pc at the moment it was fired up and the user thought he was knowingly going to use the cheat. (Preventing the cheat from working and to give a warning to the user for trying to use the cheat).
This action was not endorsed nor supported by anyone of the ZDaemon team and this team member acted alone in his case and never proclaimed to do it for the entire team either.
I didn't realise the "virus" was so mild. I guess this is just due to a lack of information on the matter, but I myself didn't look into it. Everywhere else I've looked for information, it has only said "files" which I assumed, because of its unforgiving labeling of Trojan, to be more along the lines of personal documents or system files. Anyway, it isn't like I'm going to find and download something labled as a virus.

Quote:
Notice how i said 'we' a lot in this entire message?
Should i start feeling offended?
I more meant some individuals of the team. I don't have anything against the support team/avatar approval team. In fact, it is more I just don't like Raider and Kilgore.

Quote:
You have every right to form your own opinion about the ZDaemon community and project. This post however, certainly proves a lot of things wrong which are considered by you as facts.
Everyone else will be able to see that now i hope rather then to see a shortsighted and negative view that was trying to be shed onto the project in this thread. Have a nice day.
Thanks for your contributions. I'm going to try to remove as much PoV as possible. I tend to put a lot of PoV in when I'm tired (like I was).

Anyway, Skulltag has had its own fair share of criticism. SKO made clients commit DDoS attacks of ZDaemon. I didn't really like Codeimp either.

Last edited by RabidZombie: 08-28-2007 at 09:23 AM.
RabidZombie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2007, 05:17 PM   #41
Da_maniaC
 
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Reputation: 0
Posts: 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by RabidZombie View Post
I checked the ZDoom change log and I can't find any references to deliberately changing any weapon physics for the better. Nor have a ever heard it mentions before this day. In fact, Randy has made several changes to move ZDoom's behavior closer to Doom's, such as calculating the damage radius as a square not circle (which was a mistake).Although, I don't really see how small changes can make such a large difference anyway. I haven't been able to notice any major changes between Doom's multiplayer and ZDoom's with the exceptions of genuine improvements such as players being over to pass over each other..
If you are not aware of physics and damage deviation regarding ZDoom and ports based on it without changes in regard to these fields then the discussion about how it effects gameply is quite irrelevant to you.
There is a specific reason why a vanilla doom authenticity is favoured. 100% of the 'older' doom community grew up with it. Very good players have mastered it only to find a newer generation of what is proposed to be the exact same game to be different. This matter is adressed severely just so this specific argument can no longer be used by 'older' players as an excuse.
Furthermore there are also purists like me who just favour 99,9%-100% authenticity over fancy eyecandy.
The reason you do not find any note of these changes is because these deviations (seen by the author as optimisations back then however) were present from day one. And never spoken about because of the young source port community back then and its lack of understanding compared to today.
If you have played Doom since it came out like I have you develope a nack of sensing weird deviations by just playing a simple map.
Zdoom may have uncapped FPS which is pleasing for the eye, but i will prefer ZDaemon over it any day due to the fact that these modified physics and damage calculation are still present today and severely hold me back from playing doom on the same level i do on vanilla Doom and ZDaemon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RabidZombie View Post
So disagreements among team members permit them being banned from even playing what they once contributed to?
Not at all. As i stated in my previous post; no drastic measures will be taken unless personal offense is comitted and as i also stated before an offense on the service we host for free is also seen as personal.
I never read of any german citizans cheering when hitler forcefully tried to overtake the council of an entire country. Even though he contributed as a politician in this same council himself.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RabidZombie View Post
I more meant some individuals of the team. I don't have anything against the support team/avatar approval team. In fact, it is more I just don't like Raider and Kilgore.
Heh, i guess someone has to play police officer and determine what is and is not liked in regard of fair use of a free service.
Since Kilgore and Raider are both lead developers and administrators i could not think of anyone else better suited for that job.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RabidZombie View Post
Thanks for your contributions. I'm going to try to remove as much PoV as possible. I tend to put a lot of PoV in when I'm tired (like I was).

Anyway, Skulltag has had its own fair share of criticism. SKO made clients commit DDoS attacks of ZDaemon. I didn't really like Codeimp either.
Thanks for the understanding.

I've been around long enough to see how relationships between ZDaemon and Skulltag develope. In a case like this i will do everything that is justified to show that both ports can co-excist easily.
I have also seen what causes them both to wringe in the same community over the years but i am not getting into that on these forums since it is simply irrelevant.
Da_maniaC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2007, 05:59 PM   #42
AlexMax
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Reputation: 13
Posts: 147
Nice work on the FAQ, Zombie.

My problem with ZDaemon is that in my opinion, it acts very unprofessional on the 'personal attacks' front. How many people do you know go out of their way to scream "SCREW VALVE, I HATE THEIR GAME/VALVE/ETC.", and yet still play their games religiously. VAC bans are only dished out for hacks, and besides that, the community can rant and rave all they like. Although I don't like the ZDaemon administration at all, I still liked to play on servers, namely because in the end, there are only two mature alternatives to choose from, and I'm not a fan of the way Skulltag approaches Doom.

Unfortuniatly, because the administration team doesn't like me, I'm now banned on sight. This is absolutely ridiculous. I don't think I've ever seen another sucessful game where a global banlist is enforced on every single server (It's their servers, you're not paying for their bandwidth, they are), without the option to 'opt-out'. In fact, I know for a fact that the banlist is trivial to bypass if you know a bit of hex editing, but prior attempts at hosting servers such as those have been the target of "You better not be doing that, or you're ????lested from our master". You can argue that the administration is paying for the metaserver bandwidth, and thus should be able to enact whatever rules it wants, but if you compare this policy to the policy of just about every other online game in existance, it starts to not make sense.

I mean seriously, what's the deal here? It's one thing to block undesireables from the game, but the ZDaemon team essentially tries to tie the community and the game together, and by doing so it's almost impossible to exist outside of it, vocally disagree with the standing administration and still play the game. And I guarentee you that if they had started abusing this policy before there was a stable userbase in place, they wouldn't have gotten nearly as many people as they have now. Now the community is way past 'critical mass' for growth, and the administration essentially has a blank check, since number of people who leave or get banned due to disagreements is miniscule compared the number of new players entering every day.

Jesus, I've been reading way too much into this. All I know is that I can't play a decent game of doom online unless I sign up for IDL (mad kudos to Ralphis for organizing and being able to support this in spite of also being masterbanned). Around every three months, I get another craving to play doom, but my attempts at proxy-ing in have been met with little success, and I just can't ???? myself to go through a whole ringamarole of hiding my identity every time I get a craving to play.

So yeah, I guess the admins won. I'm playing Warsow and CPMA now, and having a blast (and I'm even on the testing team of the former). But I still look back occationally with a hint of nostalgia now and then, and smile about what could have been and shake my head at what eventually came of it.

Last edited by AlexMax: 08-28-2007 at 06:26 PM.
AlexMax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2008, 12:31 AM   #43
ZeroSignal
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Reputation: 92
Posts: 1,590
I think you should add PrBoom to that list.
http://prboom.sourceforge.net/

It's respected engine amongst the doom community.
ZeroSignal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2008, 09:56 AM   #44
RabidZombie
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Reputation: 66
Posts: 1,195
As awesome as PrBoom is, I can't see why anybody who isn't a Doom fanatic would use it. Other Source Ports in the list support all of PrBoom's features completely, making it pretty much obsolete for the purposes of improving upon the original Doom.

Anyway, there are loads of Source Ports I could add to the list. In the end, what comes down to it are which ones do/should people be made aware about, and do these people care about the history of the development of Source Ports.
RabidZombie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2008, 09:19 PM   #45
Da_maniaC
 
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Reputation: 0
Posts: 183
Ports like PrBoom and Chocolate Doom used to be favoured by some purists until ZDaemon 1.06. Since this had the Doom-X package which i explained above gameplay has been as close as possible to its original counterpart.
Since PrBoom had more limited multiplayer capabilities and Chocolate Doom was still in early development, more and more people lost interest in them.
Da_maniaC is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Steam Users' Forums > Steam Game Discussions > D - G > Doom series


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:26 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site Content Copyright Valve Corporation 1998-2012, All Rights Reserved.