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Old 11-03-2008, 08:00 AM   #31
Vet
 
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Originally Posted by CG1 View Post
Actually, investing to prevent users using an old product is a good business technique to getting customers on to newer products
Well I can guarantee you that when this customer moves "on to newer products", that product won't be made by Valve/Steam.
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Old 11-03-2008, 11:54 AM   #32
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Yep Valve are messing up their relations between HL1 game players, but we seem to be a minority.
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Old 11-03-2008, 04:04 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by CG1 View Post
Actually, investing to prevent users using an old product is a good business technique to getting customers on to newer products, if the customers don't know the full intentions of a somewhat destructive patch.

Yes you can still buy it, it's another source of income, but it's discontinued as in support
As long as they are releasing patches for it, it is an active product. If they broke it, which they certainally did here, it is their responsiblity to fix it.
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Old 11-04-2008, 05:19 AM   #34
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That would be true if we paid for it, but as HLDS is free we have no agreement or trading standards or whatever - so unfortunately Valve are not ultimately responsible to fix it, even though they clearly should.
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Old 11-04-2008, 11:10 PM   #35
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they should at least admit it is broken
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Old 11-05-2008, 07:57 AM   #36
GotGhosts?
 
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Steam client update released Wednesday, November 05, 2008

Is this the "fix" we've been waiting for since the last Steam Update that caused problems with 3rd party tools for HL1?

Steam News Official Steam time: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 - 7:50 am Steam client update released

A Steam client update is now available. To apply the update, click the File menu inside of Steam and then select "Check for Steam Client Updates...". The specific changes include:

Steam Client

* Added shopping cart, recommendations & purchasing directly on the web
* Added backend support for Left 4 Dead matchmaking
* Added backend support for Steam Cloud
* Updated localization for various languages
* Fixed Steam re-applying command line parameters (like -install) across 'change user' or 'change language' restarts
* Fixed Steam refreshing the games list, refreshing the server browser if open, and reloading server brower filter settings
* Fixed the friends list placeholder for large clans disappearing when "view online friends only" was turned on
* Fixed games list not always refreshing after receiving license updates
* Fixed embedded IE control not scrolling or responding to key presses correctly
* Improved IE control perf


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Old 11-05-2008, 08:15 AM   #37
AnAkIn
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GotGhosts? View Post
Is this the "fix" we've been waiting for since the last Steam Update that caused problems with 3rd party tools for HL1?

Steam News Official Steam time: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 - 7:50 am Steam client update released

A Steam client update is now available. To apply the update, click the File menu inside of Steam and then select "Check for Steam Client Updates...". The specific changes include:

Steam Client

* Added shopping cart, recommendations & purchasing directly on the web
* Added backend support for Left 4 Dead matchmaking
* Added backend support for Steam Cloud
* Updated localization for various languages
* Fixed Steam re-applying command line parameters (like -install) across 'change user' or 'change language' restarts
* Fixed Steam refreshing the games list, refreshing the server browser if open, and reloading server brower filter settings
* Fixed the friends list placeholder for large clans disappearing when "view online friends only" was turned on
* Fixed games list not always refreshing after receiving license updates
* Fixed embedded IE control not scrolling or responding to key presses correctly
* Improved IE control perf


GotGhosts?

This is a Steam client update, how does that have anything to do with HLDS?
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Old 11-05-2008, 09:46 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by AnAkIn View Post
This is a Steam client update, how does that have anything to do with HLDS?
I don't know, that's why I was asking.

I'm just anxious to get my 3rd party tools, HLSW specifically, working on my server again.

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Old 11-05-2008, 02:24 PM   #39
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It's nothing to do with HLDS, sorry. It's kind of a dead end really. Valve claim 3rd party tools had time to update but haven't, and 3rd party tools claims they haven't had info on required updates.

I'm with the 3rd party on this one, I've not seen anything documented on protocol 48 updates yet.
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Old 11-06-2008, 05:52 AM   #40
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Valve's POV seems to be that the 3rd party tool developers should have tested the CS Beta and should have reported bugs to Valve so Valve could have fixed these bugs before the update for regular CS and other Half-Life based games was rolled out.

True the 3rd party devs should have done this, but imho it isn't very user-friendly to not fix bugs only because they haven't been pointed out during the beta.

Last edited by pizzahut: 11-06-2008 at 06:24 AM.
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:10 PM   #41
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valve might say they don't support HLDS and they might even blame it on 3rd party vendors. but keep in mind that their very own server browser suffers from the exact same issues. they are requesting from external tool programmers - where many of them are hobby programmers and/or releasing their software as freeware after they have written it in their free time - what they didn't manage to do as a professional software distributor (along with a HLDS release that has an "implement me!" assert showing at startup - a clear sign that a programmer has forgotten to implement something or at least has forgotten to take that message out, which is not only absolutely embarassing for a professional software vendor but also shows that there was zero quality assurance before release of it - but that's another story).
if what pizzahut says would be true this would mean valve is complaining that 3rd party developers that don't get any money for it didn't do valves work - i really hope it's only rumours...

on the other side you got the 3rd party tools where the creators took valve at their word about their mission statement: they wanted to upgrade HL1 to use the source protocol too, because this way they reduce their own maintenance costs (they only need to support one protocol instead of two). and then they released this update stating that HLDS now uses the source protocol. no problem, most important tools out there support the source protocol since years already and it is well documented. the only software that currently has a broken implementation of the protocol is valves HLDS. it just writes the wrong values to it. e.g. where the protocol says it includes the "Number of bot players currently on the server" at this place there is only randomly 0 or 1, even when you got 4 bots on your server. where it says the current map is, it just contains the old map before the last map change. the correct information is not only replaced by wrong data but it is completely missing, so 3rd party tools can't even develop a workaround to get the data from another spot that isn't documented. the server just "lies" about the information, what can any external organisation do about it? they all WANT to create a fix but it's technically impossible, they all depend on getting correct information from the server.

i guess most of you understand that valve broke it, but don't understand that they broke it in a way that makes it impossible for others to find a workaround. all the tools need to get the information from the server and the server is reporting it wrong. we all are willing but there is no magic trick around that...that's just what i wanted to make clear, being one of those 3rd party tool developers (xREDIRECT), even when it's only a small one, running on 1200 servers.

anyway, filing support tickets about a broken HLDS probably will lead to an answer that says that HLDS is not supported. fine.
support tickets about a broken 3rd party tool will get you a reply that valve isn't responsible for these tools and that they should fix their tools themselves. fine.

but then the plan should be to submit tickets about the steam server browser and nothing else. they HAVE to fix HLDS for it to work again and this fix would immediately make all your external programs work again.

i would not expect an update from them before the end of christmas business though, they're just too busy with all the releases now that bring much more money than the old HLDS.

i hope i wasn't attacking valve too hard in the end. they make mistakes like everyone else and that the support team answers like they are answering is just natural.
after all valve isn't such a bad company and steam a great product with some very good ideas behind the main concept. i just hope they hear us and fix our current issue instead of blaming others for it, this isn't helping anyone.

Last edited by xOR: 11-06-2008 at 04:21 PM.
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Old 11-07-2008, 07:06 AM   #42
GotGhosts?
 
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Thumbs up Kudo's

In my opinion the previous post by xOR is the most intelligent and informing post this forum has ever seen.
I also think that if xOR isn't already gainfully employed it would do Valve a great justice if they would add him to their staff.

This is how things get accomplished in the real world.
Very impressive xOR!


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Old 11-07-2008, 08:33 AM   #43
Vet
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xOR
valve might say they don't support HLDS and they might even blame it on 3rd party vendors
Where does/did Valve say they don't/didn't support HLDS? Its THEIR program!!!

And this isn't just screwing the 3rd party, independent, programmer. It also affects server host companies. And Valve wouldn't be squat without them. The update has messed up the provider's control panel server access as well.
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Old 11-07-2008, 10:49 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Vet View Post
Where does/did Valve say they don't/didn't support HLDS? Its THEIR program!!!
yes but HLDS is free and it's pretty common that you can't prosecute a claim for something that you didn't even buy. of course valve IS supporting HLDS by running an official mailing list, forums or probably also answering questions here and there. but in the end:
Quote:
Originally Posted by CG1 View Post
That would be true if we paid for it, but as HLDS is free we have no agreement or trading standards or whatever - so unfortunately Valve are not ultimately responsible to fix it, even though they clearly should.
if you file a support ticket, so make it the offial way, you will get the answer:
"We do not provide direct support for dedicated server issues. You may find assistance on our forums and our mailing lists."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vet View Post
And this isn't just screwing the 3rd party, independent, programmer. It also affects server host companies. And Valve wouldn't be squat without them. The update has messed up the provider's control panel server access as well.
you certainly have a point there. of course server hosters are important for their business but in the end they, again, don't have any possibility to enforce a claim against valve.

and as the UDP packet itself is filled with faulty data by HLDS every single tool and control panel is broken now, i am sure valve is aware of that.
i am just not sure whether it will be important enough to bring up a fix before end of christmas business, they got much other stuff to do about games that are running on the source engine and DO support the source protocol properly (though rumour has it there are problems about L4D with the protocol too, but fixing that would be more important for them than the old HLDS i guess).

Last edited by xOR: 11-07-2008 at 10:53 AM.
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Old 11-21-2008, 08:00 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by cameron0620 View Post
It can no longer [...] distinguish between bots and real players.
I made a filter which may serve as an replacement. It doesn't display bot counts, however it filters out servers that have more bots than humans.
http://forum.hlsw.net/viewtopic.php?p=6730#p6730
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