A simple new boss of actual use

ms255 · 12-26-2008, 07:05 AM

Note 1: This thread is not a general thread about alternative Boss designs - make a new thread for your own new boss ideas.
Note 2: Suggestions for riot police or American Football player style are done to death - please, no more.
Note 3: Valve are reading this thread
Note 4: Any numbers are arbitrary - play-testing is everything
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is it with people and their ridiculously complex ideas for new bosses... seriously, where do these arcane, convoluted ideas come from? I can tell you where they do not come from: any kind of necessity or from insight into L4D's gameplay. My idea is solely developed from what the Infected team lacks. It's a largely 1-dimensional attacker that does little of what the Infected can already do.

So here's my non-thoughtless, non-recycled, non-contrived boss: the Charger... or Rammer, or whatever; I don't care about the name.

- Appearance: I don't care, but humanoid with plating/huge calluses on the front would suffice. Movement speed is slightly less than Hunter's until it charges. EDIT: see Linfosoma's concepts linked below!
- Designed exclusively to ram into a group of Survivors - especially so if they are in a corner or a closet (where other Infected are out of luck).
- Cannot be meleed while in a charge. Additionally, its front is armoured enough to withstand a few autoshotgun hits. Its back is massively weaker, say 150 HP (5 AR bullets, 2 hunting rifle hits or 1 shotgun shell).
- The charge is somewhat like Boomer's vomit as it can only be used once before a resting period (albeit a small one, like the Smoker tongue replacement). However, it's also like the Hunter-pounce in that it takes some time to activate, and makes a loud noise in the process. The attack is just what it sounds like, running headlong into Survivors. It can be steered only slightly, to predict a Survivor dodging one way or the other.
-Does double damage if the Survivor is knocked backwards into a wall compared to the ground (I'd say 10 (20 with wall) is more than adequate). Hits widely enough to have a small chance of getting all 4 people in a closet (or if they are otherwise grouped extremely close). Also useful for knocking people off roofs (although it would cause hanging, not home-runs). Additionally, it cannot shove cars/trees like a Tank.
- Missing and hitting a wall yourself will cause a melee-style knockback effect, allowing somebody to nail your back, or the group to concentrate fire to kill you. You can be meleed when not charging, but the stun will be brief and/or non-repeatable (you cannot be battered to death like a Hunter).
- A melee damage of 4 or 5. Hunter melee strength should remain the best.
- Infected in the way are shredded (as per a pipe bomb).
- EDIT: Bosses in the way are just clipped through. The previous idea invited griefing.

This was initially conceived as a counter to cowering melee tactics, but distraction/opening/charge-out-from-cover possibilities are also there. It's not 'just a Hunter' because its attack cannot pin anybody down - it must attempt to retreat and recharge, or can choose to keep meleeing a single Survivor. The armour would allow a fair few swipes before he goes down - as long as nobody can target his back.

It's not a Tank though: it can only attack with relative impunity a single time. It's fast, but in an open space even a 30-health player would have a good chance to dodge it and render it impotent as it crashes into a wall or tree (or just runs out of steam), exposing its back.

Since it cannot be meleed on its approach, The Charger fills the niche I believe needs filling: storming a fortress of melee swiping. Melee-spamming with no thought could now result in punishing damage, especially in a situation with no space to sidestep. Additionally, a group of running, meleeing Survivors are now liable to taking significant chip-damage unless they also have the skills and awareness to dodge a charge. EDIT: 'Toteming'/'Shiva-ing' would be out of the question

Note that he is envisioned as a common Boss, not a special one like the Witch or Tank. The Charger would replace one Hunter slot - he is limited to 1 at a time though, like Boomers and Smokers (2 hunters happens where 3 can currently). He would be balanced (damage, speed, health) to be roughly as destructive as a Hunter. The reasons I want him spawn-able rather than an event are to keep the Survivors on their toes at all times and to allow him to be spawned tactically - and many of the good locations to spawn this fine fellow would be completely alien to the other 3 classes (and vice versa). He attacks where others cannot, without stealing the roles of the established Infected.

Best new thoughts of my own and of others, all suggested after the OP was written:

- Doors are burst open instantly, like a Witch. Opening a door into the face of a charging Charger will just break the door.
- Bullets do not penetrate its front (but still damage it at a low %) allowing it to briefly shield a friendly Smoker busy constricting or help a Horde make it to close-quarters without being gunned down first.
- Charging off a large height fails the charge by causing a stumble (as-per being-meleed). This prevents it from being better than a Hunter from a rooftop. A "safe" (no fall damage) height drop is permitted within the charge attack.

- The psyching-up is a separate action to the charge. Roaring would give you 3-5 seconds or so in which to get into position and left click, and that familiar ring would go down to demonstrate losing the rage (or use a bar like the Tank). This would allow a Charger to attack difficult places - such as the NM04 closet by the elevator - so he does not die in front of closets he is supposed to be ramming into.
- I realized he is very dangerous during finales/events when Boomers have hit. To compensate, his roar could cause all infected to stumble as if meleed, slowing down their advance and dooming those in the room the Survivors are holding to be very swiftly shot. This gives all Survivors a brief window to clear a small space for a possible sidestep manoeuvre... good luck if they are all in a narrow closet.

The charge's 'grace period' would be balanced to make it require skill to avoid him in this situation, but not make it too easy for him to connect. If the zombies only stumbled as normal, the charge would have to trigger before the fresh Infected coming in could block Survivor movement.

- The charger should take a much briefer stumble effect (1s) from being meleed (when moving normally/melee scratching) than other Infected do, and that furthermore, after the first hit he will not stumble again for 3s. I don't think anybody wants another Hunter-style melee battering.
- His silhouette has been suggested to include bone spikes - an excellent way to make him instantly recognizable.
- His charge speed could be moderate on initiating, then increase until falling off again. Initial damage and knock-back distance could be based on the speed (making it harder to shove people over edges without them dodging), but damage from being shoved into a wall is unvarying, allowing the melee front-goons of a closet setup to suffer similarly to the rear-jerks.
- A player could click again or press S (backwards) to "apply the brakes", which would be reasonable but not infallible. Charging at a Survivor next to a fatal ledge would be certifiably fatal for you if they dodged. After braking, hitting any Survivor would reduce your momentum, meaning you wouldn't necessarily both go over the edge on a success. Reducing momentum from hitting Survivors would also prevent you smacking a closet wall hard enough to stagger (allowing a retreat out). Note that before you attempt to slow down, barging people would not slow you.
- A good proposed solution to turning speed is to make the charger skid/slide on a change of direction (i.e. he'd only be able to affect his direction gradually). As well as making him unable to make ludicrous turns indoors without epic-failing on a wall, it would add skilfulness and fun to his play and also render accounting for Survivors dodging a real talent.
- If he was to run slower backwards and sideways than forwards, it would be considerably more difficult to escape with the armour-plating facing survivors. However, turning tail to flee faster exposes his weak spot, so he must choose his movements carefully.

Linfosoma was kind enough to draw the following comic to illustrate: http://alejandrogorgal.googlepages.com/theRammer02.jpg. Linfosoma has also been drawing concepts with me 'yay-or-nay'-ing them, so he deserves his concept arts to be linked to as well.

Here's one
and another
And the most recent.

If any of you have played with a "Stubbs"... that would be me. Finally, here's a shameless plug for my newest idea

solitarygrounds · 12-26-2008, 07:09 AM

i think its a great idea honestly

BagOfChips · 12-26-2008, 07:13 AM

Your father was a gerbil.

Cyz · 12-26-2008, 07:28 AM

And your mother chipmunk.

I kinda like it, though would make it a map creature like the witch, as soon as it sees you it starts charging, we need more interesting creatures popping up on the map to make each play through experience different.

shuriken93 · 12-26-2008, 07:32 AM

Best idea I've seen so far...

sauron767 · 12-26-2008, 07:36 AM

I like this idea. I would like it be a larger sized creature than the witch though.

McGinge · 12-26-2008, 07:40 AM

Yup, best special infected idea so far. Great work.

Spykez · 12-26-2008, 07:42 AM

I dig it...a lot

Nekiruhs · 12-26-2008, 07:47 AM

Very good idea. I think it well solves the melee-camping issue.

MasterDinadan · 12-26-2008, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyz

And your mother chipmunk.

I kinda like it, though would make it a map creature like the witch, as soon as it sees you it starts charging, we need more interesting creatures popping up on the map to make each play through experience different.

That would pretty much negate it's intended purpose (a counter to "closet camping" and "melee spam").

Anyway, as for the original idea, it would work really well if used with a horde of infected. While the survivors are surrounded by infected, they can't move around to dodge the charger, there's no avoiding it. A hunter is easily melee'd off during a horde because chances are your using a lot of melee if your surrounded by infected anyway.

As for the look, I imagine a musculuar football player. Helmet, shoulderpads and all that. But the back side would be exposed and softer looking to highlight his weak spot.

xfactornos · 12-26-2008, 07:50 AM

Yeah its not bad, like you said it would suck in open fields etc. Only campers would be harmed.

Manta · 12-26-2008, 08:06 AM

Funny how great minds think alike, I was thinking about such a creature for this purpose.

It had a huge bony "shield" when it used as its ram (Thinking Krauser from Resi 4), thus making it plainly obvious that you stop this enemy by attacking it from the side or behind.

To add to the idea:

1. Let's say doors are unable to stop this thing, it just charges through them, shutting closet doors would make it too easy to stop. Its charge would probably need to barge all common infected out of the way too.
2. Let's also add the idea that if it's killed while charging it maintains its momentum for about a second and thus is still able to do damage to survivors directly in front of it. The survivors still need to move out of its way and not just hope for a lucky shot on its feet or whatever.
3. Potential for some teamwork with a boomer, if the charger were to be able to advance slowly using its shield to cover a boomber hidden behind it until it got into range. Given the fragility of the boomer I'd probably let that one go though.

sprinkler · 12-26-2008, 08:10 AM

Sounds pretty damn good!

edit: and that's probably only the third time I said that about any idea on this forum, including infected ideas/tweaks/game ideas

Colosphe · 12-26-2008, 08:21 AM

So what happens when there's no survivors in a closed space? Do we get a choice to be the more useful zombie for the situation, or is it forced on us to be useless outside of a closet?

sprinkler · 12-26-2008, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colosphe

So what happens when there's no survivors in a closed space? Do we get a choice to be the more useful zombie for the situation, or is it forced on us to be useless outside of a closet?

It would be an ideal opener for boomers or smokers, if they have to evade a zombie that's about to ram into them.

12-26-2008, 07:05 AM	#1
ms255 Join Date: Dec 2008 Reputation: 89 Posts: 750	A simple new boss of actual use Note 1: This thread is not a general thread about alternative Boss designs - make a new thread for your own new boss ideas. Note 2: Suggestions for riot police or American Football player style are done to death - please, no more. Note 3: Valve are reading this thread Note 4: Any numbers are arbitrary - play-testing is everything ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is it with people and their ridiculously complex ideas for new bosses... seriously, where do these arcane, convoluted ideas come from? I can tell you where they do not come from: any kind of necessity or from insight into L4D's gameplay. My idea is solely developed from what the Infected team lacks. It's a largely 1-dimensional attacker that does little of what the Infected can already do. So here's my non-thoughtless, non-recycled, non-contrived boss: the Charger... or Rammer, or whatever; I don't care about the name. - Appearance: I don't care, but humanoid with plating/huge calluses on the front would suffice. Movement speed is slightly less than Hunter's until it charges. EDIT: see Linfosoma's concepts linked below! - Designed exclusively to ram into a group of Survivors - especially so if they are in a corner or a closet (where other Infected are out of luck). - Cannot be meleed while in a charge. Additionally, its front is armoured enough to withstand a few autoshotgun hits. Its back is massively weaker, say 150 HP (5 AR bullets, 2 hunting rifle hits or 1 shotgun shell). - The charge is somewhat like Boomer's vomit as it can only be used once before a resting period (albeit a small one, like the Smoker tongue replacement). However, it's also like the Hunter-pounce in that it takes some time to activate, and makes a loud noise in the process. The attack is just what it sounds like, running headlong into Survivors. It can be steered only slightly, to predict a Survivor dodging one way or the other. -Does double damage if the Survivor is knocked backwards into a wall compared to the ground (I'd say 10 (20 with wall) is more than adequate). Hits widely enough to have a small chance of getting all 4 people in a closet (or if they are otherwise grouped extremely close). Also useful for knocking people off roofs (although it would cause hanging, not home-runs). Additionally, it cannot shove cars/trees like a Tank. - Missing and hitting a wall yourself will cause a melee-style knockback effect, allowing somebody to nail your back, or the group to concentrate fire to kill you. You can be meleed when not charging, but the stun will be brief and/or non-repeatable (you cannot be battered to death like a Hunter). - A melee damage of 4 or 5. Hunter melee strength should remain the best. - Infected in the way are shredded (as per a pipe bomb). - EDIT: Bosses in the way are just clipped through. The previous idea invited griefing. This was initially conceived as a counter to cowering melee tactics, but distraction/opening/charge-out-from-cover possibilities are also there. It's not 'just a Hunter' because its attack cannot pin anybody down - it must attempt to retreat and recharge, or can choose to keep meleeing a single Survivor. The armour would allow a fair few swipes before he goes down - as long as nobody can target his back. It's not a Tank though: it can only attack with relative impunity a single time. It's fast, but in an open space even a 30-health player would have a good chance to dodge it and render it impotent as it crashes into a wall or tree (or just runs out of steam), exposing its back. Since it cannot be meleed on its approach, The Charger fills the niche I believe needs filling: storming a fortress of melee swiping. Melee-spamming with no thought could now result in punishing damage, especially in a situation with no space to sidestep. Additionally, a group of running, meleeing Survivors are now liable to taking significant chip-damage unless they also have the skills and awareness to dodge a charge. EDIT: 'Toteming'/'Shiva-ing' would be out of the question Note that he is envisioned as a common Boss, not a special one like the Witch or Tank. The Charger would replace one Hunter slot - he is limited to 1 at a time though, like Boomers and Smokers (2 hunters happens where 3 can currently). He would be balanced (damage, speed, health) to be roughly as destructive as a Hunter. The reasons I want him spawn-able rather than an event are to keep the Survivors on their toes at all times and to allow him to be spawned tactically - and many of the good locations to spawn this fine fellow would be completely alien to the other 3 classes (and vice versa). He attacks where others cannot, without stealing the roles of the established Infected. Best new thoughts of my own and of others, all suggested after the OP was written: - Doors are burst open instantly, like a Witch. Opening a door into the face of a charging Charger will just break the door. - Bullets do not penetrate its front (but still damage it at a low %) allowing it to briefly shield a friendly Smoker busy constricting or help a Horde make it to close-quarters without being gunned down first. - Charging off a large height fails the charge by causing a stumble (as-per being-meleed). This prevents it from being better than a Hunter from a rooftop. A "safe" (no fall damage) height drop is permitted within the charge attack. - The psyching-up is a separate action to the charge. Roaring would give you 3-5 seconds or so in which to get into position and left click, and that familiar ring would go down to demonstrate losing the rage (or use a bar like the Tank). This would allow a Charger to attack difficult places - such as the NM04 closet by the elevator - so he does not die in front of closets he is supposed to be ramming into. - I realized he is very dangerous during finales/events when Boomers have hit. To compensate, his roar could cause all infected to stumble as if meleed, slowing down their advance and dooming those in the room the Survivors are holding to be very swiftly shot. This gives all Survivors a brief window to clear a small space for a possible sidestep manoeuvre... good luck if they are all in a narrow closet. The charge's 'grace period' would be balanced to make it require skill to avoid him in this situation, but not make it too easy for him to connect. If the zombies only stumbled as normal, the charge would have to trigger before the fresh Infected coming in could block Survivor movement. - The charger should take a much briefer stumble effect (1s) from being meleed (when moving normally/melee scratching) than other Infected do, and that furthermore, after the first hit he will not stumble again for 3s. I don't think anybody wants another Hunter-style melee battering. - His silhouette has been suggested to include bone spikes - an excellent way to make him instantly recognizable. - His charge speed could be moderate on initiating, then increase until falling off again. Initial damage and knock-back distance could be based on the speed (making it harder to shove people over edges without them dodging), but damage from being shoved into a wall is unvarying, allowing the melee front-goons of a closet setup to suffer similarly to the rear-jerks. - A player could click again or press S (backwards) to "apply the brakes", which would be reasonable but not infallible. Charging at a Survivor next to a fatal ledge would be certifiably fatal for you if they dodged. After braking, hitting any Survivor would reduce your momentum, meaning you wouldn't necessarily both go over the edge on a success. Reducing momentum from hitting Survivors would also prevent you smacking a closet wall hard enough to stagger (allowing a retreat out). Note that before you attempt to slow down, barging people would not slow you. - A good proposed solution to turning speed is to make the charger skid/slide on a change of direction (i.e. he'd only be able to affect his direction gradually). As well as making him unable to make ludicrous turns indoors without epic-failing on a wall, it would add skilfulness and fun to his play and also render accounting for Survivors dodging a real talent. - If he was to run slower backwards and sideways than forwards, it would be considerably more difficult to escape with the armour-plating facing survivors. However, turning tail to flee faster exposes his weak spot, so he must choose his movements carefully. Linfosoma was kind enough to draw the following comic to illustrate: http://alejandrogorgal.googlepages.com/theRammer02.jpg. Linfosoma has also been drawing concepts with me 'yay-or-nay'-ing them, so he deserves his concept arts to be linked to as well. Here's one and another And the most recent. If any of you have played with a "Stubbs"... that would be me. Finally, here's a shameless plug for my newest idea Last edited by ms255 : 03-04-2009 at 09:11 AM.

12-26-2008, 08:06 AM	#12
Manta Join Date: May 2008 Reputation: 30 Posts: 664	Funny how great minds think alike, I was thinking about such a creature for this purpose. It had a huge bony "shield" when it used as its ram (Thinking Krauser from Resi 4), thus making it plainly obvious that you stop this enemy by attacking it from the side or behind. To add to the idea: 1. Let's say doors are unable to stop this thing, it just charges through them, shutting closet doors would make it too easy to stop. Its charge would probably need to barge all common infected out of the way too. 2. Let's also add the idea that if it's killed while charging it maintains its momentum for about a second and thus is still able to do damage to survivors directly in front of it. The survivors still need to move out of its way and not just hope for a lucky shot on its feet or whatever. 3. Potential for some teamwork with a boomer, if the charger were to be able to advance slowly using its shield to cover a boomber hidden behind it until it got into range. Given the fragility of the boomer I'd probably let that one go though. Last edited by Manta : 12-26-2008 at 08:21 AM.

12-26-2008, 08:10 AM	#13
sprinkler Join Date: May 2008 Reputation: 5 Posts: 706	Sounds pretty damn good! edit: and that's probably only the third time I said that about any idea on this forum, including infected ideas/tweaks/game ideas Last edited by sprinkler : 12-26-2008 at 08:13 AM.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes	Rate This Thread
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode	Rate This Thread:

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Hi. its not a problem, just a simple question and simple answer.	Action_Dan	Help and Tips	6	08-29-2008 01:12 AM
Help im a newbie simple questions	efour	Source DS (Windows)	1	05-17-2006 12:52 PM
Simple admin mods with in game style menu	Provost	Source DS (Windows)	0	11-02-2005 12:58 PM

12-26-2008, 07:09 AM	#2
solitarygrounds Banned Join Date: Dec 2008 Reputation: 14 Posts: 451	i think its a great idea honestly

12-26-2008, 07:13 AM	#3
BagOfChips Banned Join Date: Jul 2008 Reputation: 6 Posts: 917	Your father was a gerbil.

12-26-2008, 07:28 AM	#4
Cyz Join Date: Nov 2008 Reputation: 0 Posts: 108	And your mother chipmunk. I kinda like it, though would make it a map creature like the witch, as soon as it sees you it starts charging, we need more interesting creatures popping up on the map to make each play through experience different.

12-26-2008, 07:32 AM	#5
shuriken93 Join Date: Dec 2008 Reputation: 0 Posts: 122	Best idea I've seen so far...

12-26-2008, 07:36 AM	#6
sauron767 Join Date: Dec 2008 Reputation: 0 Posts: 53	I like this idea. I would like it be a larger sized creature than the witch though.

12-26-2008, 07:40 AM	#7
McGinge Join Date: Sep 2008 Reputation: 4 Posts: 116	Yup, best special infected idea so far. Great work.

12-26-2008, 07:42 AM	#8
Spykez Join Date: Nov 2008 Reputation: 0 Posts: 50	I dig it...a lot

12-26-2008, 07:47 AM	#9
Nekiruhs Join Date: Mar 2008 Reputation: 76 Posts: 442	Very good idea. I think it well solves the melee-camping issue.

12-26-2008, 07:50 AM	#11
xfactornos Join Date: Nov 2008 Reputation: 0 Posts: 205	Yeah its not bad, like you said it would suck in open fields etc. Only campers would be harmed.

12-26-2008, 08:21 AM	#14
Colosphe Join Date: Jun 2008 Reputation: 7 Posts: 834	So what happens when there's no survivors in a closed space? Do we get a choice to be the more useful zombie for the situation, or is it forced on us to be useless outside of a closet?