Tank and Fire, [Statistics]

[Ezell]

I understand the tank flame timer may be an annoyance to many gamers and they may post here that it annoys them to no end, however lets look at the alternative answers.

The alternative solutions I have seen on the forum all are centered around the tank being dealt damage by fire, whether it be enough DPS to kill him in 30 seconds, 45, or 60 to deal with balance, this idea is a giant flaw that has been overlooked by the average poster and has been looked at by valve in countless playtests.

Lets look at the facts, The tank loses control in 45 seconds when rage meter goes to empty, Thus a burning tank not attack and being dealt damage in the given scenarios STILL has to attack or risk giving up control, not a gigantic change, but let's look at the gun statistics and damage.

These stats were taken, and modified for the tank damage reduction from AS Vs the tank. Lets get started.

Tank 6000 Hp.

30 second fire damage - 200 Dps
45 second fire damage - 150 Dps
60 second fire damage - 100 Dps


Damage Vs tank with 4 survivors hitting every shot (theoretically they are in a closet and the tank comes charging)

4xAs = 10,000 Damage from 40 shells in 3 seconds, resulting in 833.33~ DPS per survivor.

2xAs 2x AR = 8431 Damage from 20 shells and 2 AR clips in 4.6 seconds. resulting in >458 DPS per survivor, this is not calculating the DPS spread from the 2AS vs the 2 AR, this is just pure DPS.

4x AR = 6864 Damage from 4 AR clips in 4.6 seconds, resulting in 373 DPS per survivor or 1492 DPS for the group.

Given the fact that the tank would take at the minimum of 100 DPS from burning this seems like it would seem reasonably fair, however you are not taking into account the fact the tank once lit would have to catch the said survivors, and on average you are looking at 4-5 seconds of chase at the very minimum. The tank is now looking at 5500 health remaining.This situation you are still looking at instant death when running into a closet, but now we get into the interesting parts.

In any given level you may be finding a team in which the enemy doesn't closet/corner the tank and actually kills him in a semi open area. With this the Average DPS per group on a tank is going to be anywhere from 500 - 1000 depending if there is one or more survivor shooting the tank. With the example of only one survivor shooting the tank with the little M16 you are taking 476 DPS as a tank and dying in 16-18 seconds while on fire. As it stands now Even with just one survivor shooting the tank he will die in 22-23 seconds even while on fire.

If the tank would take just fire damage at 100DPS resulting in a 60 second burn time which seems to be the favored route the tank still has the underlying problem of still having to run in and attack. The fact of the matter is burning a tank is the LEAST efficient method of killing the tank if you are just looking at a time based issue. Even one survivor shooting the tank will result in the tank dying faster than flame.

Giving the tank burn DAMAGE instead of a timer results in a 25% DECREASE in his lifespan against even ONE survivor. If a tank is on fire Vs one survivor he will STILL die faster from one AR than from the Molotov, and given the fire damage he would die in far less time and give the survivors an even larger advantage.

Another good example that people have been mentioning is the tank should take 2000 damage from fire and then self extinguish, however this results in the tank having 4000 health and resulting in a 15 - 16 second kill from ONE survivor with an AR. After looking at this the way it stands now the tank has 22-23 seconds to deal with said survivor before burning to death.

The last suggestion is a 50 DPS to the tank while on fire, far more than any other infected... This results in 120 seconds of life for the tank. While it may seem good, the result agianst ONE survivor with an AR is a 19 - 20 second life. This is STILL less time than the tank has now to kill / inacap as many survivors as he can.

In Summation. Any burning damage that would result in the tank dying in any LESS than 120 seconds, or result in a maximum of 50DPS would leave the tank at a state worse than he is now.


I understand there will be some retorts to this post so let me add in some common thought processes for people looking at this thread so I don't have to deal with them later.

1. The single survivor scenario I have given here is if every shot lands, but since that is nigh impossible I figured that this would be a good point just guesstimating that if there are 4 survivors hitting only 25% of their shots the scenario stays the same (and god help you if only 25% of your shots land on that giant zombie)

2. The tank taking fire damage would also NOT be good for artillery tanks, this method is used in keeping control of the tank and delaying the survivors not outright incapping them. While burning the tank would just have more time to do this, and it is still as easily avoidable as it is now.

3. In my scenario I use one survivor, and you may think that while smacking around a single survivor they wont have time to shoot, however this is easily the least likely case for the tank on fire especially. If you are going after a lone survivor while on fire you should win now, and no matter the change if it is a single survivor you are A. Going to win, or B. Failing miserably as the tank and going to die either way.

Hopefully this post will clear up some of what people have been saying about the tank fire timer and how it could be improved with damage, there really is nothing that needs to be done other than people using the tank more efficiently with their team.



TEAL DEAR HERE: Tank having fire damage = NOT GOOD Proof in post!

[Ezell]

Just wanted to add that I would like to see a graphic representation of the flame timer, whether it be a separate bar for charring or something, but it would be a nice implementation.

[Adradis]

I would also like to point out that when the tank ISN'T on fire, your conceptual tier 2 damage outputs almost (Coordinated teams will do it) will NEVER occur. They scatter, they split up, and the damage output drops like a rock if the rest of the infected add in harassment. At this point, a tank on fire could incap 3 survivors, and, while still in the high seconds of living from gunfire, burn off before catching a last runner survivor. Just a thought: Optimal numbers are nice, however they NEVER represent anything but the ideal situations that occasionally show up (Our team's strat a lot of the time is just crouch in the corner, and spray fire. This hits the upper limit of DPS that your study shows)

[Fat4all]

Wow. I've gotta say, that post was awesome. It showed a great study of damage vs. the tank, and by the time I was done reading it, I almost forgot it was about fire not causing damage.

Bravo, wonderful study!

[Ezell]

Originally Posted by Adradis

I would also like to point out that when the tank ISN'T on fire, your conceptual tier 2 damage outputs almost (Coordinated teams will do it) will NEVER occur. They scatter, they split up, and the damage output drops like a rock if the rest of the infected add in harassment. At this point, a tank on fire could incap 3 survivors, and, while still in the high seconds of living from gunfire, burn off before catching a last runner survivor. Just a thought: Optimal numbers are nice, however they NEVER represent anything but the ideal situations that occasionally show up (Our team's strat a lot of the time is just crouch in the corner, and spray fire. This hits the upper limit of DPS that your study shows)

The DPS in the top is based off of a corner group burning down the tank.. the DPS I used in my examples of tank life are taken from 1 survivor hitting 100% of his shots or 4 survivors hitting 25% of their shots on the tank.

But given this point, lets say the tank takes 1 second of damage from a full group of AR's. This is optimal, but lets just use it as an example seriously 1 second of full damage is not hard to accomplish. But 1 second of damage from 4 is around 1400 damage. This moves the tank to 4600 Hp and with the added fire damage and lets say horrible accuracy against a TANK at 50% it takes 31 seconds to kill with one survivor with an AR. You gain nothing (1 extra second) by using fire as a damage vs fire as a timer.

[Ezell]

Originally Posted by Fat4all

Wow. I've gotta say, that post was awesome. It showed a great study of damage vs. the tank, and by the time I was done reading it, I almost forgot it was about fire not causing damage.

Bravo, wonderful study!

Thank you, I again want to use this as an example (maybe not the best) but it shows, that when looking at the numbers, burning the tank is truly a weak plan and in 30 seconds of dodging you can be attacked 2x by 3 special infected resulting in the possibility of much more harm.

People should really forget about burning the tank when they have T2 weapons... this goes doubly true as the tank run speed in campaign Expert is faster than a green survivor.

[Adradis]

What I'm getting at is that your optimal argument is bad for the call of fire burnout not doing damage. If he's going to die from gunfire far faster then he would from fire DPS: big deal. It's going to happen regardless.

If, however, it caused DPS: It would give the tank some flexibility in his attacks: If the survivor team splits up at all, he could easily live MUCH longer (Getting towards the fire damage based burnout cap, rather then all being weapon damage). More often then not, when a flaming tank scatters a group, he might down a couple, then burn out chasing the others, while still at high life (Teams are stupid enough to scatter with tier 2).

It's a matter of: He's going to die to gunfire anyways before 30 seconds (Coordinated) or he's going to die in 30 seconds, but could easily live a minute based on the Survivor damage output (Scattered).

[Fat4all]

Originally Posted by Ezell

People should really forget about burning the tank when they have T2 weapons... this goes doubly true as the tank run speed in campaign Expert is faster than a green survivor.

I know! Ever since I figured out that fire increases the Tanks speed (like how fire increases the hunters damage), I kept trying to tell my teammates.

But, of course, they have the instinct to throw down the fire...

[Ezell]

Originally Posted by Adradis

What I'm getting at is that your optimal argument is bad for the call of fire burnout not doing damage. If he's going to die from gunfire far faster then he would from fire DPS: big deal. It's going to happen regardless.

If, however, it caused DPS: It would give the tank some flexibility in his attacks: If the survivor team splits up at all, he could easily live MUCH longer (Getting towards the fire damage based burnout cap, rather then all being weapon damage). More often then not, when a flaming tank scatters a group, he might down a couple, then burn out chasing the others, while still at high life (Teams are stupid enough to scatter with tier 2).

It's a matter of: He's going to die to gunfire anyways before 30 seconds (Coordinated) or he's going to die in 30 seconds, but could easily live a minute based on the Survivor damage output (Scattered).

This is a very understadable argument and I can see your point, However even given a 60 second life with fire damage the tank would die faster from being shot than from fire damage from a pair of survivors in your example. These are the facts, you can argue that they would run, they would do this or that, but in all reality with a 60 second damage burn the survivors have 30 seconds to do 3000 damage, which is even reasonable from a T1 SMG and a single survivor. The math just doesnt even add up unless you catch 4 survivors running away and no shots fired.

If the survivors can manage 3000 damage in 30 seconds, or 100 DPS which is the equivelent of 60% of a SINGLE PISTOL from a lone survivor then there really cant be an argument here. With a single pistol 3000 Damage is achieved in less than 30 seconds, thus resulting in a tank dying faster than 30 seconds with a 60 second burn damage time.

[Ezell]

What Im trying to say is... You start burning... And even with a single pistol from a single survivor you are taking 175DPS, within 17 seconds you have lost 3000 health just from te pistol alone, including burn damage in 17 seconds you will have 1300 health REMAINING with a single survivor shooting you while burning in only 17 seconds!

[Adradis]

I know what your saying, but DPS isn't everything in the equation. Players do NOT behave logically around the tank (At least a lot of them don't). The moment the rest of the infected team stomps into the fray, a loosely organized team that isn't very good will scatter, and scatter HARD, especially if they just light and run. As such, the survivor DPS becomes minimal, as very few are willing to risk the chance of getting caught by the tank, and will not shoot anywhere near as much.

Your assuming optimal: I'm assuming reality based on the majority of tank based situations. If a boomer gets your entire team, and the tanks there, but burning due to a molotov, the fire DPS will be FAR more effective as it will allow the tank to fight quite a bit longer (As everyone else panics around the horde)

Again: Optimal DPS is not the sole way to approach a problem like this, especially when the optimal damage is not likely to occur in situations in which the fire DPS would be needed.

[Ezell]

Originally Posted by Adradis

I know what your saying, but DPS isn't everything in the equation. Players do NOT behave logically around the tank (At least a lot of them don't). The moment the rest of the infected team stomps into the fray, a loosely organized team that isn't very good will scatter, and scatter HARD, especially if they just light and run. As such, the survivor DPS becomes minimal, as very few are willing to risk the chance of getting caught by the tank, and will not shoot anywhere near as much.

Your assuming optimal: I'm assuming reality based on the majority of tank based situations. If a boomer gets your entire team, and the tanks there, but burning due to a molotov, the fire DPS will be FAR more effective as it will allow the tank to fight quite a bit longer (As everyone else panics around the horde)

Again: Optimal DPS is not the sole way to approach a problem like this, especially when the optimal damage is not likely to occur in situations in which the fire DPS would be needed.

Agian thank you for the thoughtful reply +1rep, I am enjoying this convorsation, but agian I want to point out, I may be using optimal DPS per gun, but I am using optimal DPS per gun for a single and solitary survivor, that means that these numbers will hold true if you hit 50% of your shots with 2 survivrs, 1/3rd of your shots with 3 and a mere quarter of all shots with 4 survivors. I also did my reasoning with an AR, throw in an AS and the DPS more than doubles in the 1 on 1 situations, and as that is the gun of choice for the majority of players the time would be cut in half, this results in a 1v1 on a burning tank of 3 seconds for 2500 damage minimum to the tank agian from a single surivor, and then you are stuck once agian with a 38 second life. A slight improvement, but agian, one survivor, if you managed to do 5000 damage to the tank, thats 4 players hitting only half their shots on the tank so in essence 20 shells total out of 40 would hit him he would die in the following 7 seconds anyways. That is still quite a difference if those players had done the exact same as before but with burn timer instead of damage the tank still has 26 seconds to pound survivors that may scatter at this point or thay may be boomed instead of guarenteed death in 7.

[Adradis]

Hmm. Your DPS per survivor seems a little bit high offhand, but I haven't checked, so no other comment there. Regardless of fire DPS: A good team will slay the tank in seconds, an inept team that just fires and runs will quite possibly do next to no damage.

It's a matter of catering to the lower denominator, where a lot of fights end up, when people talk about fire DPS. Anyways, it's been an interesting conversation, but I'm off for the evening.

[Ezell]

http://forums.steampowered.com/forum...d.php?t=778290

Thats the damage stats I have that have been tested.

But agian thank you Adradis, it was quite fun and you did make me consider my thought processes again, but looking at pure numbers fire damage does seem to be a terribad solution. In the end I geuss it is up to valve just wanted to give the numbers for the masses.

There will be countless situations in which one way overpowers the other, hopefully if they do decide to try something like this they have less than moronic team mates

[itzbutters]

Sorry I didn't read the thread but...in my opinion...

Fire shouldn't be a top way to KILL the tank, it should be however a deterance to him, such as it slows him down. Making the survivors able to outrun him it they are faster then him while hes on fire.

For example a green health survivor can outrun a fullhealth tank, but not at yellow hp, if tank was on fire, survivor should be able to outrun tank at yellow HP or better.

I've been playing l4d since release, and from what I've seen I think this would be a nice fix. Again just my opinion...