King Tiger vs. Abrams

Blue Lightning · 07-05-2009, 06:02 AM

This is just meant to be a fun debate.

I know the Abrams is a moderen marvel, far advanced from the mighty King Tiger, and it should be an easy win for the Abrams, right? Wait, not so fast...it may seem silly, but mabey the KT is strong enough to hold it's own! Just a fun scenario I will offer...

An Abrams and a King Tiger are facing off. At a distance of 1600 meters (1 mile), the Abrams fires on the King Tiger, but the KT is angled and the round deflects. The King Tiger returns fire with it's 88mm gun, scoring a direct hit on Abrams. But Abrams one foot-thick depleted uranium armor protects it, as the KT's round just bounces off. Knowing that the Abrams is about to return fire, the King Tiger quickly moves behind some nearby large boulders at the base of a hill, to reload as Abrams closes in.

At 900 meters, the Abrams fires it's 120mm smooth-bore anyway, which goes through the boulder and strikes the King Tiger, damaging it's hydralics! Now bellowing smoke, the crew of the KT decide to quickly take the cripped KT behind the small hill. While the KT now plays defense, the exubarent crew of the Abrams decide to play offense. Knowing they have already crippled the King Tiger, the Abrams crew decide to come in for the final kill.

As it approaches the small hill, Abrams radar is unable to see the King Tiger since the hill is in the way. As it comes around to the back of the hill wide, the King Tiger is waiting, nesting up against the hillside. At just 10 meters distance, the King Tigers 88mm L/71 unleashes a round, striking Abrams side hull, and penetrating, causing an explosion.

Winner: King Tiger.

Plausable scenario?

Dr DooM · 07-10-2009, 02:40 PM

you write me a story detailing how such a scenario came into being and i might think about giving an answer.

Blue Lightning · 07-12-2009, 07:45 PM

Well...say America finally pulls it troops out of Germany after 65 long years. And say Germany begins behaving badly once again. They began taunting France and things escilate, so America sends in Abrams tanks.

Near a German town bordering France (where the Abrams tanks are coming in), there is a King Tiger in a museum, perfect condition. Leapord tanks are still 60 miles out and closing, so something needs to be done to protect the small town imediatley. A German tank commander grabs the King Tiger from the museum, and puts it agianst an incoming Abrams.

There, how's that for "a story detailing how such a scenario came into being"?

Panzer118 · 07-20-2009, 09:46 PM

heeeeee, your story gives me a good laugh. In realrity, M1 takes out T72 at distance of 2500m kill range over 2000m(t72). By the way, the King tiger hass no chance on both speed and its thick armour takes no stand from the modern shells. Sorry, thats the truths. Its like an elephant figting a polar bear.

Dr DooM · 07-21-2009, 11:51 AM

"an elephant fights a polar bear" now THATS a story.

LePetitDejeuner · 07-27-2009, 11:05 AM

As the King Tiger prepares to move behind the hill, some modern troops with Javelins take out the tiger.

Blue Lightning · 07-31-2009, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Panzer118

heeeeee, your story gives me a good laugh. In realrity, M1 takes out T72 at distance of 2500m kill range over 2000m(t72). By the way, the King tiger hass no chance on both speed and its thick armour takes no stand from the modern shells. Sorry, thats the truths. Its like an elephant figting a polar bear.

Oh? In WWII, 122mm rounds from the IS2 bounced off of Panthers, which had much less armor than a King Tiger. Hell, much bigger 152mm rounds from the ISU could (rarley) bounce off an angled Tiger, as long as it was APCHE and not HE.

Look, I know that the 120mm smooth bore gun of the Abrams has higher velocity than those most likley, but isnt it possible that an angled King Tiger could get a deflection? Remember, I was talking about 1600 meters which is a good long distance. I mean take a look at this beast and tell me an Abrams would have no trouble with this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VzS-H2JB8M

Anyone else have their own "scenario" for Abrams vs King Tiger?

wengart · 07-31-2009, 11:12 PM

A T-90 can be knocked out by an Abrams at quite a range. A King Tiger wouldn't stand a snowballs chance in hell. Not to mention while the KT is backing up the Abrams could pop another shot off.

Hell even an Abrams has a hard time taking a shot from another Abrams.

Now if this King Tiger were to hide in a side street, and get a flank shot on the Abrams it might work.

foxhoundSFU · 08-02-2009, 12:04 AM

I guess a mobility kill could be possible for the King Tiger

Blue Lightning · 08-02-2009, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wengart

Now if this King Tiger were to hide in a side street, and get a flank shot on the Abrams it might work.

Well yeah, but could a King Tigers 88mm penetrate an Abrams side from 10 meters? I bet its a close call. I know it would knock off the tracks.

FireFox · 08-03-2009, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Lightning

Well yeah, but could a King Tigers 88mm penetrate an Abrams side from 10 meters? I bet its a close call. I know it would knock off the tracks.

Also remember that a round leaving the barrel of a tank/any barrel is not up to full volicity @ 10 meters.

Can't remember the time or distance a good guess would be 100-200meters,,about 0.01-0.05sec,there fore a really close shot would deliver less damage than a round fires lets say 1-200 meters,

But the tracks would be toast,,with a track shot @10 meters,and even a hit to the side would rock the M1A1,penetration is iffy,but most likely would cause masseive amount of splinters inside tank of varing side,needle to finger size schards of metal at high volicity,killing all

Aurien · 08-03-2009, 10:00 PM

There is absolutely not even close to being a competition between the tanks. First round from the Abrams would go through the Tiger II like a hot knife through butter. Not even Abrams tanks can take a hit from a SABOT round. The Tiger II would have to put several rounds or get a shot on the rear to even disable the Abrams. As far as range. The only thing that limits the Abrams is what the ballistics computer will compute for. A M1A2SEP can hit and kill from 5KM. Armor isn't angled to deflect rounds, although if you're firing cannon balls at a tank they will bounce off. They angle armor to increase armor thickness. Take a 2x4 and hold it up vertically, then draw a straight horizontal line. Now take that same 2x4 and put it at a 25% angle and draw that straight horizontal line. Which line is longer? The 2nd line is, thus any round trying to penetrate the armor has to penetrate more armor. Easy way to increase armor thickness without adding weight.

Clayman66 · 08-04-2009, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aurien

There is absolutely not even close to being a competition between the tanks. First round from the Abrams would go through the Tiger II like a hot knife through butter. Not even Abrams tanks can take a hit from a SABOT round. The Tiger II would have to put several rounds or get a shot on the rear to even disable the Abrams. As far as range. The only thing that limits the Abrams is what the ballistics computer will compute for. A M1A2SEP can hit and kill from 5KM. Armor isn't angled to deflect rounds, although if you're firing cannon balls at a tank they will bounce off. They angle armor to increase armor thickness. Take a 2x4 and hold it up vertically, then draw a straight horizontal line. Now take that same 2x4 and put it at a 25% angle and draw that straight horizontal line. Which line is longer? The 2nd line is, thus any round trying to penetrate the armor has to penetrate more armor. Easy way to increase armor thickness without adding weight.

The SABOT round was the killer I was thinking of...arent they supposed to be able to go through one side and out the other on some tanks? Im pretty sure they werent around in WW2 cuz theyre made from depleted uranium or something (presumaly the fins etc are not)? Dont quote me on that though, but id imagine Aurien could tell you :P

Good point about the angling/thickness. Never knew that, but it makes perfect sense now you say it! Nice explanation also

Blue Lightning · 08-04-2009, 06:35 PM

Yes, the angle explination is very interesting and does make sense. I certainly except that. (LOL at the cannon ball statment...it does make sense though!

)

However, about the rounds fired...

the SABOT round...will defenatly penetrate an angled King Tiger at a distance of 1 mile? Remember, thats 150mm of sloped armor frontal, and only a little less on the side.

And the 10 meters shot from the KT's high velocity 88mm...your right, at that short distance top speed is not obtained. And I agree it would kill the Abrams tracks (if aimed correctly). I also agree that even if it does not penetrate the side, it would be damaging.

Would a well aimed shot from the KT to the area between the turret and the hull on the Abrams, be a killer?

Clayman66 · 08-04-2009, 06:43 PM

I wouldnt like to say for sure, but id imagine the SABOT round would penetrate the KT at a mile. I think I read somewhere that they can disable modern tanks at well over 1500m.

Absolutely no idea about the turret/hull gap...hopefully yes, cuz that would be cool!

07-05-2009, 06:02 AM	#1
Blue Lightning Join Date: Mar 2007 Reputation: 24 Posts: 2,001	King Tiger vs. Abrams This is just meant to be a fun debate. I know the Abrams is a moderen marvel, far advanced from the mighty King Tiger, and it should be an easy win for the Abrams, right? Wait, not so fast...it may seem silly, but mabey the KT is strong enough to hold it's own! Just a fun scenario I will offer... An Abrams and a King Tiger are facing off. At a distance of 1600 meters (1 mile), the Abrams fires on the King Tiger, but the KT is angled and the round deflects. The King Tiger returns fire with it's 88mm gun, scoring a direct hit on Abrams. But Abrams one foot-thick depleted uranium armor protects it, as the KT's round just bounces off. Knowing that the Abrams is about to return fire, the King Tiger quickly moves behind some nearby large boulders at the base of a hill, to reload as Abrams closes in. At 900 meters, the Abrams fires it's 120mm smooth-bore anyway, which goes through the boulder and strikes the King Tiger, damaging it's hydralics! Now bellowing smoke, the crew of the KT decide to quickly take the cripped KT behind the small hill. While the KT now plays defense, the exubarent crew of the Abrams decide to play offense. Knowing they have already crippled the King Tiger, the Abrams crew decide to come in for the final kill. As it approaches the small hill, Abrams radar is unable to see the King Tiger since the hill is in the way. As it comes around to the back of the hill wide, the King Tiger is waiting, nesting up against the hillside. At just 10 meters distance, the King Tigers 88mm L/71 unleashes a round, striking Abrams side hull, and penetrating, causing an explosion. Winner: King Tiger. Plausable scenario?

08-04-2009, 06:35 PM	#14
Blue Lightning Join Date: Mar 2007 Reputation: 24 Posts: 2,001	Yes, the angle explination is very interesting and does make sense. I certainly except that. (LOL at the cannon ball statment...it does make sense though! ) However, about the rounds fired... the SABOT round...will defenatly penetrate an angled King Tiger at a distance of 1 mile? Remember, thats 150mm of sloped armor frontal, and only a little less on the side. And the 10 meters shot from the KT's high velocity 88mm...your right, at that short distance top speed is not obtained. And I agree it would kill the Abrams tracks (if aimed correctly). I also agree that even if it does not penetrate the side, it would be damaging. Would a well aimed shot from the KT to the area between the turret and the hull on the Abrams, be a killer? Last edited by Blue Lightning : 08-04-2009 at 06:37 PM.

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07-10-2009, 02:40 PM	#2
Dr DooM Join Date: Oct 2003 Reputation: 5 Posts: 267	you write me a story detailing how such a scenario came into being and i might think about giving an answer.

07-12-2009, 07:45 PM	#3
Blue Lightning Join Date: Mar 2007 Reputation: 24 Posts: 2,001	Well...say America finally pulls it troops out of Germany after 65 long years. And say Germany begins behaving badly once again. They began taunting France and things escilate, so America sends in Abrams tanks. Near a German town bordering France (where the Abrams tanks are coming in), there is a King Tiger in a museum, perfect condition. Leapord tanks are still 60 miles out and closing, so something needs to be done to protect the small town imediatley. A German tank commander grabs the King Tiger from the museum, and puts it agianst an incoming Abrams. There, how's that for "a story detailing how such a scenario came into being"?

07-20-2009, 09:46 PM	#4
Panzer118 Join Date: Jul 2009 Reputation: 0 Posts: 7	heeeeee, your story gives me a good laugh. In realrity, M1 takes out T72 at distance of 2500m kill range over 2000m(t72). By the way, the King tiger hass no chance on both speed and its thick armour takes no stand from the modern shells. Sorry, thats the truths. Its like an elephant figting a polar bear.

07-21-2009, 11:51 AM	#5
Dr DooM Join Date: Oct 2003 Reputation: 5 Posts: 267	"an elephant fights a polar bear" now THATS a story.

07-27-2009, 11:05 AM	#6
LePetitDejeuner Join Date: Jul 2009 Reputation: 154 Posts: 60	As the King Tiger prepares to move behind the hill, some modern troops with Javelins take out the tiger.

07-31-2009, 11:12 PM	#8
wengart Join Date: Jun 2008 Reputation: 3 Posts: 207	A T-90 can be knocked out by an Abrams at quite a range. A King Tiger wouldn't stand a snowballs chance in hell. Not to mention while the KT is backing up the Abrams could pop another shot off. Hell even an Abrams has a hard time taking a shot from another Abrams. Now if this King Tiger were to hide in a side street, and get a flank shot on the Abrams it might work.

08-02-2009, 12:04 AM	#9
foxhoundSFU Join Date: May 2009 Reputation: 1 Posts: 49	I guess a mobility kill could be possible for the King Tiger

08-03-2009, 10:00 PM	#12
Aurien Join Date: Jul 2007 Reputation: 10 Posts: 332	There is absolutely not even close to being a competition between the tanks. First round from the Abrams would go through the Tiger II like a hot knife through butter. Not even Abrams tanks can take a hit from a SABOT round. The Tiger II would have to put several rounds or get a shot on the rear to even disable the Abrams. As far as range. The only thing that limits the Abrams is what the ballistics computer will compute for. A M1A2SEP can hit and kill from 5KM. Armor isn't angled to deflect rounds, although if you're firing cannon balls at a tank they will bounce off. They angle armor to increase armor thickness. Take a 2x4 and hold it up vertically, then draw a straight horizontal line. Now take that same 2x4 and put it at a 25% angle and draw that straight horizontal line. Which line is longer? The 2nd line is, thus any round trying to penetrate the armor has to penetrate more armor. Easy way to increase armor thickness without adding weight.

08-04-2009, 06:43 PM	#15
Clayman66 Join Date: Apr 2009 Reputation: 0 Posts: 154	I wouldnt like to say for sure, but id imagine the SABOT round would penetrate the KT at a mile. I think I read somewhere that they can disable modern tanks at well over 1500m. Absolutely no idea about the turret/hull gap...hopefully yes, cuz that would be cool!